taylor Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Well I love my new LSs but have missed LF extension on some music. Jazz is no problem but some rock just needs it. I was wondering what most Khorn owners think about the bass. Ive seen questions on other forums about using DR subs and assume this might be overkill for HT. Im not a bass freak except for quality. Would either one or two bins help out the LSs enough to justify the hassle? All horn just seems right. BTW, a friends father just happens to have soom old plans to build Khorns. They are from the 60s when EV sold/gave plans to driver purchasers. They have been rechecked by an engineering firm and printed via blueprint machine full size! He and his buddies built a bunch of them in the mid sixties. Im hoping the design hasnt changed so that a current K33 will still be alright. What do you guys think? One/Two bins in the corner/s with LSs in the middle. Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Yes, the scalawag does roll-off at a higher low frequency than the k-horn. You have to realize the original intent of the lascala was not to compete with the venerable k-horn, but to provide a speaker for use on a flat-bed trailer during political campaign of Winthrop Rockefeller when he ran against Orville Faubus for governor of Arkansas back in mid-1960's. It had to be able to stand-alone and produce bass with no wall or corner behind it, but it also had to be easily maneuverable so that it could be hauled around. Its combination of maneuverability and acccurate sound reproduction made it become a standard production item...originally most popular for stage applications. But it also became popular in homes as a fully-horn-loaded center channel between two k-horns...which led PWK to develop the Belle Klipsch...so that there would be a "pretty" version of it for that center channel use in homes. Truth be told, the Cornwall outperforms the lascala in an interior environment where it can be placed in a corner or along a wall, but the cornwall, even though it produces more low-end bass, is NOT horn loaded in the woofer section, therefore looses some of the clarity in that area that the lascala has. Although the lascala is a great speaker in its own right, it doesn't measure up to the k-horn in performance...it was never intended to do so...the only way you can get the sound of a k-horn is to have a k-horn...plain and simple! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 If you have corners for K-horns, you'd be better off building a pair and putting the L-S components in them. The K-horn's rated response goes down to 35 Hz and the L-S is now rated to 53 Hz (quite realistic), so you're not gaining that much. I'd guess that's about 2/3 of an octave. Still, If you could use K-horns, I'd rather have two of them than to have 2 L-S and one or 2 K-horn bottoms in the room. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor Posted May 3, 2002 Author Share Posted May 3, 2002 I wouldnt mind having Khorns but my listening room is far wider than deep, so I really have to have speakers in the middle of the wall. The listening angle would be >90deg. If the gain of 2/3 only costs $100-200 for speakers plus a couple sheets of birch ply, it still should improve the sound at a reasonalbe cost dont you think? If I move, I could always use the bins and make "satalites" out of the LSs to create a Khorn. My biggest concern is still whether a Khorn produces acceptable LF for most listeners. Is it pretty weak at 35-40hz or does it do an adequate job. Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 3, 2002 Share Posted May 3, 2002 Taylor, K-horns ideally should be in the corners of the room, but that is not an absolute. You can build false corners that will still provide the bass extension the k-horns need for optimal performance, but will give you the option of redirecting the angle in a wide room to your intended "sweet spot". PWK has his own k-horns set-up like this at his home. With an adequate center channel speaker, you will be all set. The only person who can accurately answer your question about whether the k-horn produces adequate low-end is.........YOU!...YOUR ears!!...If you have never heard k-horns, then find some and give them a listen! As for building them yourself...all I can say is...have fun...and good luck! They are NOT easy to build, and one must have one helluva lot of time and excellent cabinetry skills to build them right! As for the ease of getting components...yep...pretty easy to find...EXCEPT the midrange horn lens!!! That tends to be the "stopper" for many who want to build their own using parts from other models to do so. Klipsch has always attempted to thwart the home-builders by not readily making the mid-range horn lenses available. There ARE other alternatives, but they still aren't original to the design! I hope this helps you some. ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-03-2002 at 07:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 I don't know how big your room is but I seem to remember that someone posted that PWK thought an ideal setup was two Khorns in corners on a 27' wall with a LaScala or Belle in the center. I used my Khorns w/o bass suplimentation (the start rolling off around 40 Hz and go down to the mid 30s which covers about 99% of all music. I found them terrific with bass - nothing beats horn loaded bass IMHO. However Ray Garrison suggested that I hook my two Klipsch LH10s wired in parallel to each Khorn as suggested on the Rel site (his choice for a sub to use with LaScalas). set them to 40Hz and the did provide more robust bass a small improvement on perfection but since I can redirect bass to them with m Outlaw ICBM for SACDs it turned out to be a good idea for this and also for DVDs. It also seemed as Ray had suggested to produce a slight but worthwhile improvement in the midrange/bass balance also. A Khorn bass bin would suppliment the LaScalas although one or ideally two subs set to 60 Hz might be a better idea. Especialy because a Khorn bass bin requires a skilled cabinet maker with good equiptment. It is not an easy project. Let us know what you decide and how it turns out. ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor Posted May 4, 2002 Author Share Posted May 4, 2002 Soundog, thanks for the info. Im willing to sacrifice a small amount of LF to keep this system ALL horn. As I stated above, I have full size schematics, or really templates that are accurate to 1/32" for all dimensions. I have a full woodshop w/ a 50" Powermatic tablesaw and a panel saw so this shouldnt be too difficult. It will be nice to use ply rather than MDF as with my last several projects (oh my back!) This may take awhile to complete since it is one of many projects (car, yard, house etc) on my plate, but Ill keep in touch with progress. Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 Taylor, When looking at your wants for performance and comparing them to what you already have, and its value...you may want to consider just picking up a pair of good used K-horns from eBay! With some very nice PAIRS in walnut going for $2000 lately, and possibly even lower (if you don't believe me do a quick search RIGHT NOW!!!), and considering that the price for a SINGLE new k-horn will exceed $3000...and also considering that a pair of good LaScalas is currently generally going for OVER $1000, then you can see why I am telling you this! Once you figure your cost of materials, man-hours, and prescription drugs for aquired headaches, a pair of good used k-horns at $2000 or less is a big-time bargain!!...especially when you can turn around and sell the lascalas if you want and get WELL OVER HALF of that purchase price for the k-horns back!!! Just a thought! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 Taylor- If you have the time - go for it! ------------------ Soundog's HT Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylor Posted May 4, 2002 Author Share Posted May 4, 2002 HDBRbuilder, You have some very valid points. Ive always wanted a pair of Kkorns but it just seems impractical for my room. My wife has accepted the LSs and I told her an addition would be two corner "stands" for our sculptors. I really want the imaging of two speakers in the middle of the room and there is no way she would get behind two Khorns on the wall! Also, the flexibiliy of the separate units is appealing since we may move and who knows what room Ill get next. If too small, I can just use the LSs. The cabinet fabrication I would actually enjoy since this is what I do for fun anyway. And since the drivers all the same, I can still build a Khorn mid/tweet unit if I wind up w/ a proper room. Thanks again for pointing out options. Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 4, 2002 Share Posted May 4, 2002 Taylor, Well, If you want to build the k-horn sometime, please keep this in mind. Tolerances for ALL parts in the K-horn woofer section are 1/64" (0.015")or less. Been there, done that!...WAY too many times!!...LOL! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 Now THAT's an interesting topic ;o) In the past years, being a Belgian student with not much money (you should see how much costs a pair of Klipschorn here in belgium...as much as a car) I've been using "false" Klipschorns. The bass section was using a pair of "cornerhorns" I bought for 80$ in a closing nightclub. They where using them for subwoofer duties. I was using them along with AA x-overs and K55V - K77M mids and tweets. Woofers were EV. Last year I finally got my hands on a pair of LS, so I dismanteled the false K-horns. Well, I often think about wether or not i could use the cornerhorns as subs; I wasn't able to try it yet, because I don't have enough money to buy a second pair of K33 (the EV woofers don't go low enough), but this topic gives me the envy to try... The cornerhorns (I have a pict but how do i post it on here???) differ quite a bit from the K-horn but the basics are the same; I suspect they might even reach lower frequencies; fact is they don't go as high as the real k-horn bass bins. But they could be effective as subs... so should I try it??? any comments or suggestions are welcome...) Frans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 Frans, Just a note to you here. When I was stationed in Europe, I was an infantry paratrooper("parachutiste infanterie militaire") in the 509th Airborne Battalion Combat Team. I was given the wonderful opportunity to visit Belgie on numerous occassions. One of my proudest accomplishments in my military career was completion of Belgian Commando School. I spent many enjoyable moments with my fellow Belgian military counterparts, and fell in love with the country...greatly enjoying my small bit of free time in Diest while staying at Schaffen for the parachute training portion of the school. Lombardside, where the mountain and river training was held, was absolutely beautiful, too; although my impression of Ostende was less than favorable(it was so cold, misty, and dreary every time I was at Ostende!). Belgium is a beautiful nation with warm and friendly people!Welcome to the forum! When attempting to post a photo, you must transfer the file into your personal files on this forum. From there, you may insert its icon into your posting. To do this, click on the "insert image" icon above where you write your posting, first, then insert your photo file, then click on that and an icon will show up in the corner of your posting. I had a hard time figuring this out, myself...and if anybody here can show me how to transfer a link to a posting, or insert the actual photo, instead of the icon, I will appreciate it, too!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-05-2002 at 02:53 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 HDBRbuilder, so you enjoyed belgium... great to hear that! I love my country. Belgian spirit and sense of humor are very special and I wouldn't wan't to be from anywhere else ;o) Have you been to Brussels yet? the old city is splendid. And yes, it's often rainy in Ostende ;o) Only problem about Belgium is: finding other klipsch lovers. We're very "bookshelf audiophiles" here if you know what I mean...(oooh lovely shoeboxes. do they kick?) All klipsch parts i bought, including the Scalas, were in fact used in the PA market. I tried to upload the "cornerhorn" picture, let's see if it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 5, 2002 Share Posted May 5, 2002 Frans, Yes, I have visited Brussels, and pretty much all of Belgium. I take it you are Flemish, given your name? I found both the Flemish and the Walloons very friendly toward me, although they didn't necessarily mingle well amongst themselves, if you understand what I mean(and I am sure you do!). I often wondered where in Europe I would most like to live if ever I had a need to. It was narrowed down to Belgium and Austria. Two considerably different countries, but also two countries where I found both a beauty in the countryside and in the people I met which, at least slightly, exceeded that of the other European countries I had the honor of visiting between 1973 and 1976. Yes, your photo came through just fine, Frans...Happy I could be of some assistance! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 HDBR, In fact I'm not flamish, I'm walloon; Frans is in fact a diminutive for Franois wich, I think, is difficult to read for english or german or dutch people... ) Anyway, that's true there are some tensions between flamish and walloons but we try to keep it as "political" as possible; in real life I have lots of contacts with flamish people, I use to buy them a lot of second hand equipment (they seem much more interested in audio than us, walloons) and they sell their stuff at silly low prices... they can even be friendly!!! lol I'm trying to make other pictures of my equipment, so I can put them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 One other pict of the cornerhorn. In the rear you can see one of my scalas; as you see they were heavily modified for PA use; the last user even put piezo tweeters in it, of course I ditched them! (hence the holes...). I plan the re-fill those holes soon; but I like the grey paint-job. Anyway I catched them for cheeeeap!! The bass bin isn't JBL; it's just because the previous owners did use them with JBL woofers... don't laugh! my set-up usually looks better, without all the stuff lying everywhere lol... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 6, 2002 Share Posted May 6, 2002 Frans, Klipsch actually produced a split-LaScala. When it first came out it looked like what you have, but had black industrial polymer finish or fiberglass/black finish on it. All of the fiberglass/black ones were supplied with handles in the woofer section..one on each side, inset. The top end also had handles inset on each side. The fiberglassed ones also had anodized aluminum edge trin and steel corners all around. Some of the black textured ones had the metal trim treatment...and some of them had handles as well. A good many of the black textured finish ones were built with the edges and corners rounded over with a router prior to painting, too. The later style top-end housing was more triangular in shape (as seen from above), but the very early ones were like what you have. Just thought you might want a bit of info on the Industrial split Lascala. ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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