K-Horn & Spikes ?

[garyd9]

I notice that most modern speakers are shipping with inverted spikes to "isolate" the speaker cabinets (or stands) from the floor.

I know that the Klipschorn was designed to utilize the walls to extend the folded horn.

Is there any sonic reason to isolate the K-Horn from the floor ? Would this just de-tune the horn ?

(my K-Horns rest on carpet covered cement slab floor)

Thanks in advance, Gary

[HDBRbuilder]

K-horns use the walls AND the floor as an extension of the folded horn...no spikes needed!

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[lynnm]

As pointed out above - The genius of PWK's design is that..... The floor and the walls are an integral part of the bass horn. This is how the Khorn can perform like a horn loaded speaker of several times its actual size!! Raising your Khorns from the floor will seriously degrade their sound.

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[jdm56]

I removed the little stamped-metal feet from my k-horns and put three of those adhesive-backed, hard nylon footers on in their place. I did it mainly to ease moving the big fellas in and out of the corners. But they did raise the speaker about 3/8 of an inch further off the floor. I can't discern any effect on the bass performance, though.

I actually think spikes might have some sonic merit for k-horns, but they would be very unpractical. How in the heck would you move'em?

Really though, at 167 pounds, I think the need for spikes is minimal.

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JDM

[garyd9]

Thanks for the feedback.

Is there a paper that describes the design and optimal installation for the K-Horn ? I remember reading one back in the mid 1950's.

The only instructions that I got when I bought them (new) in 1990 were "place them in a corner".

Regards, Gary

[soundog]

I found that weather striping of the foam variety with adhesive backing placed along the back edges of my Khorns "sealed" them to the wall, improving bass response.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[HDBRbuilder]

James D McCall,

I don't know if you are aware of it, but those little "metal feet " you removed are actually supposed to be removed by the owner prior to final placement of the k-horn. They actually aren't feet at all, but gliders. They are use on LaScalas and K-horns to "slide them around" from point to point in the plant, instead of using a pallet jack to maneuver them. That is their only intended purpose.

Garyd9 and Soundog,

For optimal perfomance of the k-horn, the "tailpiece" should be in direct continual contact with the walls as they leave the corner of the room. If you notice, both the "tailpiece" and the side Grilles are relieved for base molding in generic patterns, but if the particular base molding in your home does not follow or fall within that profile relief, then it may be necessary to relieve the wood at the tail-piece and grilles to ensure a tighter fit into the corner. We all know that few corners in any structure allow for a perfectly tight fit of the tailpiece, therefore, some sort of filler may be needed to accomplish this, such as caulk or weather stripping...but the more SOLID the filler is, the better the bass horn's performance. Many have used the more solid rubber weather stripping that has a "flat" at one edge that can be stapled to the tailpiece and has a hollow tube-like shape at the other edge that can be "squashed" up against the walls.

Also, to provide an even better bass response from the folded horn...the same solid contact is desired at the points where it meets the floor. At the time of the original design of the k-horn, most homes had hardwood floors and if carpeted, the carpet was not wall-to-wall, but instead there remained a perimeter of this solid flooring around the carpet, by which the k-horn could make direct contact with the floor, itself, instead of sitting on carpet. Nowadays, the vast majority of homes with carpeted floors are "wall-to-wall" carpeted. In order to achieve the optimal contact of the folded horn to the floor, it would be necessary to remove the carpet that would normally be directly under the horn...and, if for no other reason, the "significant negative response from significant others" factor tends to negate this from happening!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-05-2002 at 11:05 AM

[JohnA]

Though of questionable effectiveness, the purpose of spikes is not to isolate the speaker from the floor, but to prevent minute movements of the cabinet and therefore the tweeter. The theory is that the short wavelengths produced by the tweeter are more suseptible to timing errors and doppler effects since the wavelength and minute movement are so nearly the same.

Think about it, sharp spikes pushing through the carpet to make hard contact with the floor could not be more isolation.

John

[HDBRbuilder]

John,

Yes, I understand about the purpose of the spikes, and agree with you in your analysis of them. I was just making a point as to the original intended placement of the k-horn. As for the minute movement affecting tweeter performance, I also agree. That is one of the reasons why whenever the k-horns were put in direct contact with a hardwood floor, there was normally some sort of "sealing agent" used, at least while I worked at the plant. This helped to eliminate the speaker from "walking" and vibration and still provided a more solid contact with the floor.

Often used for this purpose was running a thin, continuous, UNIFORM BEAD of silicone caulk around the perimeter of the base of the k-horn about 1/4" to 1/2" in from its edge, and making concentricly smaller beads within the perimeter about 2" apart,then letting these beads set-up overnight, bottom-side of the woofer up, so that it would provide both a sealing "O"-ring gasket effect (without "glueing" itself to the floor) and also grip the floor surface so as to eliminate the vibrations you speak of, once the speaker was installed the next day.

When this technique was used to install the k-horn on a bare floor, the ensuing low-end bass performance was most pleasantly improved.

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-05-2002 at 01:24 PM

[garyd9]

HDBRbuilder,

Your input is much appreciated. I would like to feed back to you what I heard.

The "tailpiece" plywood is 8 3/4" x 38 1/2" x 1/2" ( on a 1990 k-horn). The 8 3/4" width has slight taper that reduces to 8 1/2" at 30" from the top. At 30" the width reduces (curves) inward to a width of 6 1/4" at 31 1/2" from top. At 37 1/2" from top, the width reduces to 5" (90 degree cut). The last two width reductions were designed to accommodate potential wall moldings.

The bass soundwave encounters the tailpiece and then travels the contour of the wall until it is diverted by the rear frame member (1" x 3/4")of the side grill(s). The angle of the rear frame member (grill) is approx 40 degrees from the plane of rear wall.

Optimum bass performance is achieved when:

1. Bass soundwaves cannot "leak" around any edge of the tailpiece. This includes the two width reductions near the floor.

2. Bass soundwaves cannot "leak" between the wall and the rear frame member of the side grill(s). This includes the lower molding cutouts on the rear frame member.

3. Bass soundwaves cannot "leak" between the bass unit and the midrange/high freq chamber.

4. The more SOLID the filler used to prevent these leaks, the BETTER the bass performance.

5. If possible, seal the bottom of the bass unit to the floor.

Again, your insight is appreciated. Gary

[HDBRbuilder]

Gary,

Your description of how the k-horn folded woofer section works is what I have stated based on info I got when I worked there, EXCEPT....the side grilles perform no use at all, except to provide a filler between the woofer housing and the wall for aesthetic purposes ONLY. BUT, if they ARE used, then they need to be positioned so that they DO NOT rattle against the wall surface.

BTW, the slight downward inward taper you speak of in the tailpiece was added after I worked there....most likely to allow for easier fitting of the woofer to the corner, with the top of the tailpiece fitting most tightly into the corner....thereby allowing for irregularities in the corner of the room below that point, wherein another sealing material will become filler.

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-05-2002 at 07:05 PM

[IndyKlipschFan]

I think JD said it right ...

Really though, at 167 pounds, I think the need for spikes is minimal.

Thats a lot of weight. Unless your on a hard surface floor...I doubt spikes would help. Trust me they are not gonna move anywhere IMO.

(K Horn User)

[edwardre]

HDBR - So, you're saying that the metal feet are for sliding and should be removed from the Khorn? Am I to assume that these same stamped metal feet should be removed from my Belle, Cornwalls and Forte II's as well? Jeepers, I was missing one from my Forte II's as well as one from a CW. Went all over town trying to find a new set and finally did. Now I should shed them? Or are you saying that they should be removed if used on a hard floor only?

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Ed

[HDBRbuilder]

Edwardre,

Belles were also slid from point to point instead of on a pallet jack...so they, like lascalas and k-horns also have gliders. The forte was not being built when I was there so I dont know about it. Cornwalls were not built with gliders on them when I was there...but if they came with pre-installed risers on them, then the risers had gliders...I have no idea about cornwall II's...but like i said...the only purpose for gliders was to make them easier to slide from point to point in the plant...that's all...and I imagine that when maneuvering them around in a home for vacuuming and such it is easier...they WILL help keep the bottoms from getting scratched up in that case, but that is kinda a non-issue, since the gliders put three little holes in the bottom of a speaker anyway...I guess it may be better for a lightweight speaker to have them on it if they are sitting on a hardwood floor that isn't perfectly level...but the belles, K-horns, and lascalas really don't need them...they work better with a larger footprint on the floor!!...AND they have the weight to keep them flat to the floor, to start with! Belles have risers, LaScalas don't!!...so ...since Lascala bottoms are flat, the gliders may be a good idea on a hardwood floor to ensure the speaker doesn't wobble. I remember asking my foreman when I first got there, and that is what he told me, and that was also confirmed whenever an employee bought k-horns and we installed then...we removed the gliders...same for belles...your call! LOL!

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This message has been edited by HDBRbuilder on 05-06-2002 at 07:16 PM

[jdm56]

If the stamped steel feet were just intended to ease moving, but then be removed for optimum performance, it seems to me klipsch should/would have said so...somewhere! Plus one little point; how do you remove them "after" you've placed the speaker? Let's see, I guess you'd have to pull the speaker back out of the corner, lay it down and remove them, then stand it back up again and slide it back into the corner...without the gliders that are intended to ease movement! OK, so now I put them back on...yadayadayada. Kind of like a dog chasing it's tail, no? (I know; I'm extending the point to it absurdist extreme. So sue me. .

As far as coupling the speaker to the floor, which as has been stated, is what spiking speakers is all about, any speaker will couple more effectively with spikes or feet of some kind, than without. Simply a matter of concentrating the speakers weight onto a smaller contact area, in order to achieve as high a psi as possible. Which brings me back full circle, regarding the mighty klipschorn; at 167 pounds, the need is minimal for spiking. But I think that three footers of some kind - preferably that do allow easy movement - are desirable for sonic reasons.

The point HDBRbuilder makes about the need for a good floor-to-horn seal may well be valid. I would not argue against it. But, in my room, even with the taller feet I installed, which does raise the bottom of the speaker just slightly above the carpet (maybe 1/4"), I noticed no difference in the bass. Maybe it was there, but to small for my tin ears to notice.

Perhaps the best of both worlds would be spiked k-horns, with a butyl rubber strip under the edge to seal the horn to the floor. Or for carpeted floors, a narrow metal strip slightly shorter than the spikes, that would penetrate the carpets nap to maximize the seal.

...and then again, maybe I'm obsessing...again

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JDM

This message has been edited by James D McCall on 05-08-2002 at 05:15 AM

[lindee]

You can try spikes if you would like, but I can tell you from experience, trying to hold a Khorn in the air and flush with the corner is... difficult, especially by yourself. There is also the problem of not setting the spike through your foot (not a pleasant experience) while trying to maintain balance, and not drop the speaker. My suggestion is get a patient, very patient, friend to help. I ended up removing mine... from the Khorn and the foot.

Good luck

Eric

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There is no substitute for cubic inches?

[jdm56]

I'm not trying it anytime in the forseeable future. I was merely postulating. (I wander if I can take something for that?)

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JDM

[edster00]

quote:

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Originally posted by HDBRbuilder:

James D McCall,

I don't know if you are aware of it, but those little "metal feet " you removed are actually supposed to be removed by the owner prior to final placement of the k-horn. They actually aren't feet at all, but gliders. They are use on LaScalas and K-horns to "slide them around" from point to point in the plant, instead of using a pallet jack to maneuver them. That is their only intended purpose.

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If I am reading HDBR's words correctly the "gliders" were for use at the plant and were supposed to be removed prior to final placement not after!

Just thought I would "pick a nit" .

This message has been edited by edster00 on 05-09-2002 at 07:27 AM

[Toadstool]

When I worked in a bicycle shop back in my high school

years the unassembled bikes were delivered in cardboard cartons. The wheel axles had plastic "caps" attached to prevent them from poking a hole through the side of the carton. Since that was their only purpose, most bike mechanics would toss them before delivering an assembled bike to a customer. But our shop charged extra for assembling the bikes. Therefore, some customers would buy bikes still in the carton. Many of those customers would leave the "caps" attached to the axles. Which in itself, was fine. They didn't hurt anything.

The reason I bring this up is because I can't tell you how many times someone would come to the shop and ask for a replacement cap after one had fallen off. We'd dig through the trash and with much amusement hand over as many as we could find...no charge.

The bicycle assembly instructions did not state that those caps should be removed...much like Klipsch not telling customers to remove the gliders.

[Parrot]

I used Tip-Toes (spikes) under my Klipschorns for years. I was talked into getting them by a salesman. I can't say I noticed an improvement in sound. But having the speakers an inch or so off the floor saved them from water damage when the finished basement unexpectedly started leaking. So I'm happy I had them for that reason.