elitedemo Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I think my best option is to repair these and (if needed) get something to give me a crossover I can set around 30 or 40 Hz. just set mine to 40hz after adding a little sub klfs are great rock speakers but if you do a little eq the 83s are pretty mean, best money spent besides repair will be on a good sub to help the 83s out edit...holy crap they want 880 for 1 damaged rf83? i think they are nuts some people didnt even pay that for a pair in excellent condition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjr Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yeah, I've seen that 83 on ebay. I got this pair for $900. I have a line on another pair (it'll make 3 pairs of these in my house) with an HK stereo receiver and a 5-disc Yamaha CD changer for $1200. Sounds like my best option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madfusker Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 $900 is a steal for these beasts! That's what I paid for mine and they were mint too. I was almost sure they were stolen and took a photo of the license plate as we made the exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 No your assumption is wrong. There is this thing called thermal compression. You input more than about 1/3 the rated wattage into a speaker and the voice coils heat up which increases the resistance and decreases out put, you try to overcome this with more power (which will work for a little while but you end up with hotter coils the viscous circle has begun and it usually ends quickly with a melted voice coil. Your RF83 will not out play the Heritage speakers. I am sure there are more technically inclined members who could explain this to your satisfaction but you seem hell bent for leather to forge ahead and just do this again. Your money and your lesson to do with as you please. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madfusker Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I've never heard any thermal compression before. I can crank up my 83's with a lot of power and they never decrease output causing me to turn them up more. If they are heating up I wouldn't know it. Just say'in.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjr Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 No your assumption is wrong. There is this thing called thermal compression. You input more than about 1/3 the rated wattage into a speaker and the voice coils heat up which increases the resistance and decreases out put, you try to overcome this with more power (which will work for a little while but you end up with hotter coils the viscous circle has begun and it usually ends quickly with a melted voice coil. Your RF83 will not out play the Heritage speakers. I am sure there are more technically inclined members who could explain this to your satisfaction but you seem hell bent for leather to forge ahead and just do this again. Your money and your lesson to do with as you please. Best regards Moray James. So......how does that change any comparison I've made? 1/3 the power for the RF-83 is 83 watts and change. 1/3 the power for Khorns is 33 watts and change. It STILL works out the same. Unless you're telling me that the 83s succumb to your 1/3 power rule and Heritage speakers are somehow immune or excluded from your rule. Again, I'm not saying 83s sound better (especially since I've never heard any of the Heritage line). I'm just saying math is math. Unless you can show me some (accurate) voodoo math that applies to the Heritage speakers but not the Reference line......... Bottom line: I ran too much power at too low of frequency. I'd have killed a set of Khorns at the same power level and frequencies being thrown at them. My money, my lesson. I guess I turn it down until I can filter the low frequencies and possibly throw a sub or 2 in the mix. I have a pair of VTF-15Hes in my HT setup. I also have an RW-12 that was part of a package deal that may go well with this other set of 83s for music. Right now, I'm considering a pro-audio crossover with sub output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjr Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Edit: delete duplicate post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 The rule applies to all speakers but there are a lot of variables which we are not taking into account here but factor in just the same. The spec numbers we most often work with (supplied by the make) don`t tell the whole storey and are intended for general comparitive purposes. They dont tell you what the speakers efficiency is at say 100Hz. 50Hz and 25 Hz or the amout of acoustical output the speaker is capable of and at what frequency. There are losses electrical and acoustical and variables which impact them. Ask the technicqal department at Klipsch and get the answers from an engineer. Kilpsch do provide the maximum output for a number of their speakers. the Cornwall lllmax out is 119 db for one speaker so that would be about 122 db for a pair. The given output for a La Scalla ll is 121 db so 124 db for a pair. Lets look at the stated efficiency of the La Scalla at 105 db for one watt input. The La Scalla is rated as 100 watts continous input full bandwidth. The math says 120 db with 32 watts in. The cornwall lll is listed at 102 db efficient and 100 watts max continous so that yields 117 db out with 32 watts in (one speaker). You are right you need some subs but I still think that you also need bigger speakers that can deliver what you are demanding. Three eight inch bass mid woofers will not do the job that you ask of them. All number voodoo stuff aside you have the proof of this sitting at home right now. You need bigger speakers. Multi room distrubition even with inexpensive in wall/ceiling speakers will yield better sound quality through out the house than what ever you have blasting in the dinning room alone. Good luck with your system best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Here are some Klipsch blogs that you might find interesting. Best regards Moray James. http://community.klipsch.com/blogs/default.aspx?GroupID=36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 You shreded the cones due to excessive cone motion. Of you want loud, buy a pair of HIP and use with subs and an electronic crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 As far as bigger speakers, the 83s can play louder according to the specs. It's just that the Heritage speakers take less power for a given dB. I play them very loud because they are in my music room (supposed to be a formal dining room) and I use them to listen all over the house. Late to the party and looks like your concerns might have been answered. You listen like I did in my TN home. I would have things turned up pretty hard from time to time as I'd be upstairs/downstairs/outside and wanted something within earshot. With regard to your bigger speaker comment...(and due respect), I'd also disagree with your premise. Here's something I once asked Roy (engineer at Klipsch) Paraphrased, it was: If a speaker like a Heresy can be fed "x" watts and have a SPL level of say, 100 db's at my listening position and the LaScala/Khorn/Jubilee can ALSO be fed "X" watts such that they too have an equal 100db's at my listening position.... why do the others SOUND much bigger/louder? My interpretation of his answer would be similar to this: With the smaller speakers you get more of a 'spotlight' beam of sound that might indeed be 100 db's at the listening position. With the larger speakers, it's more like a FLOODLIGHT of sound and you will have a much more broad area of 100db sound with the larger speaker than the smaller speaker. Give yourself a listen to some of the larger speakers and you'll soon realize what I'm (and others) are trying to say. Regarding compression (and I'm NOT an engineer so this is rank speculation on my part) I wonder if the horn loaded speakers suffer from it less since the drivers are moving less to begin with? In other words, 100 db's of output on your speakers might mean the woofer is moving 1" peak to peak and on the Khorn, it might only be moving 1/2" peak to peak?? (made up numbers since I have no idea of reality) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjr Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 The rule applies to all speakers but there are a lot of variables which we are not taking into account here but factor in just the same. The spec numbers we most often work with (supplied by the make) don`t tell the whole storey and are intended for general comparitive purposes. They dont tell you what the speakers efficiency is at say 100Hz. 50Hz and 25 Hz or the amout of acoustical output the speaker is capable of and at what frequency. There are losses electrical and acoustical and variables which impact them. Ask the technicqal department at Klipsch and get the answers from an engineer. Kilpsch do provide the maximum output for a number of their speakers. the Cornwall lllmax out is 119 db for one speaker so that would be about 122 db for a pair. The given output for a La Scalla ll is 121 db so 124 db for a pair. Lets look at the stated efficiency of the La Scalla at 105 db for one watt input. The La Scalla is rated as 100 watts continous input full bandwidth. The math says 120 db with 32 watts in. The cornwall lll is listed at 102 db efficient and 100 watts max continous so that yields 117 db out with 32 watts in (one speaker). You are right you need some subs but I still think that you also need bigger speakers that can deliver what you are demanding. Three eight inch bass mid woofers will not do the job that you ask of them. All number voodoo stuff aside you have the proof of this sitting at home right now. You need bigger speakers. Multi room distrubition even with inexpensive in wall/ceiling speakers will yield better sound quality through out the house than what ever you have blasting in the dinning room alone. Good luck with your system best regards Moray James. Correct. This is why the Heritage line sound better. I understand there is much more that goes into it than power and sensitivity. It's still more beneficial to fix these, get a crossover, and pull the RW-12 out of storage. The RW isn't much of a heavy-hitter, but I do get a lot of room gain from the dining room. It'll probably hit harder down low than the 83s do by themselves. I don't have corners for Khorns (nor room to build false corners) which makes LaScalas or Cornwalls the next best thing. Given the layout, I still don't have a good place for them. So it's back to fixing these and not being so hard on them anymore. Sometime down the line I can multi-room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 So...is it ok to hit the Cornwalls with 500 watts wide open? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I've run the Cornwall IIs with bridged Adcom 555s, about 900W/4Ω. That may be a bit much power for them, but I didn't hurt them. When you say "with 500 watts wide open" that sounds like a situation for potential abuse to me. If you want to rip your face off, take my advice and buy a pair of HIP, and run a sub with an electronic crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 When you say "with 500 watts wide open" that sounds like a situation for potential abuse to me. Yes.....I think so....I'd say the Cornwalls would not last long..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGERDAN Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 This is my two cents but i think you are missing a few things from whats been said, if not then disregard what iv said. With the comparison between the heritage and reference in regards to recommendations of better application for your needs you have made the assumption of a few things that have already been pointed out but thought it would be good to concrete them. The recommendation of a louder speaker was pointed out because you infact blew your speaker from you breaching the mechanical limitation via high power output forcing the cone to exceed its polarity limits. Now with the herritage they are more sensitive so require less power for a given sound pressure level but this does not determine a speakers physical limits in SPL, the speakers design determines its physical limits and that can involve things like driver size, polarity limit, materials, enclosure etc (also noted that the power ratings are inacurate and misleading so you cannot use these informations). Generally if you want to go louder you need a larger driver size to fill the room as pointed out by coytee which i say was some great information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modified-Tractrix Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I will give the same advise I give many that find the upper boundaries of the consumer klipsch line. Your ears will suffer for it, but you need to look into klipsch pro cinema or some used JBL gear. sound pressure will not be a problem with those designs and they will do it day in and day out. The ultimate would be something like a KPT-942-4-T http://www.klipsch.com/kpt-942-4-t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Them`s rockin words! Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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