Mallette Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 Ok, certainly four by definition, but what about in spirit? I purchased a DynaQuad passive rear channel device in the mid-70's which has enhanced my listening ever since. For those who've not heard of it, it was Hafler's original circuit for "civilizing" the retrival of existing out-of-phase information that exists in recordings and retrieved by many early technofreaks by attaching two speakers in the rear wired out of phase. Hafler made this easy by adding a rear volume and method of optimizing the retrieval, as well as a way to switch it out. I've found the sonics produced by this passive system far more immersive and satisfying than two speakers. Further, I could argue that two speakers is only slightly ahead of mono in that few live musical experiences are heard from the front only without rear reflections and such. This information exists in two channel recordings and is recovered nicely by the Hafler circuit. So what do you think? Since nothing is being added, processed, or altered, seems like its closer to the spirit of 2 channel than DSP and other artificial means, and it certainly seems silly not to listen ALL the information on a recording. Best regards, Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 I have been listening to my old Harman/Kardon 900+ receiver since 1975. It is quad...has SQ and QS matrix decoders in it, a CD-4 Demodulator in it, AND has circuitry similar too what you described built into it called "enhanced stereo"(actually almost the same as Dolby surround)...for those two-channel recordings...so that they simulate quad. For many years, after the "downfall" of 4-channel, I was the only one I knew with "surround sound" in my house...now that it is coming back for home theater and such...I find that the old H/K is still just as good as ever!!! Just goes to show you..."What goes around, comes around"...now all these young folks are sittin around listening to their new surround sound systems and wearing hip-hugger bell-bottomed jeans...kinda like we did back in 1975....go figure!! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 12, 2002 Author Share Posted May 12, 2002 But are those "enhanced stereo" circuits entirely passive? What I like both philosophically and musically about the Hafler is that it is basically a "straight wire with phase" and a volume control. If there is no out of phase information, it does nothing. My Denon HT reciever also has a "matrix" decoder, but it is DSP in nature and definitely not very natural. Certainly wouldn't let it near my music...:-> Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 12, 2002 Author Share Posted May 12, 2002 BTW, what I meant in the original post by rear channels out of phase was reverse phase from the FRONT, not with each other. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 12, 2002 Share Posted May 12, 2002 Dave, I am running a Technics SL1300 turntable from 1975, with a JVC 4MD-20X cartridge with shibata nude stylus(made by audio technica for JVC and specifically designed for CD-4)...it all still works perfectly and on CD-4/Discrete albums it is mind-boggling! I also run a TEAC A2340-R automatic reverse reel-to-reel...through a DBX II, model 124 4-channel noise reduction unit and into two soundcraftsman 20-12A equalizers before getting to the old H/K 900+...all bought in 1975. On the old discrete factory-recorded reels it is amazing!!!...Jethro Tull's Aqualung never sounded so good! Even my Technics RS676AUS cassette deck is from 1975...and blows away any recent ones I have heard...matter of fact, when it was new I put it up against a Nakimichi 1000, and it ate its lunch too!! LOL! I have heard alot of fancy expensive receivers, amp/preamp combos, etc. over the years, but the old H/K is as good or better than any SS set up I have ever heard...and it still cranks up my Klipsch just fine!! For SS, it is surprisingly warm...almost like the best tube amps!! (well, in 1975, it DID list for over $1,000.00, so it had to be pretty damned good!!) My CD player is the only component besides my speakers not from 1975!! LOL! ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 I remember the Hafler thing and I am interested in trying it. What do I need? 2 speakers, another amp (with a volume control), and wire the speakers out of phase? Just flip the wires at the speaker right? Or is that polarity? Jeesh...I think I've lost some brain matter over the years. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2002 Author Share Posted May 16, 2002 The rear speakers are wired with reverse polarity from the front. Just as having your speakers out of polarity from each other, the slight time differential between the two signals emphasizes the slightly out of phase information containing room reverberation. Of course, in the case of L-R speakers out of phase, what you get is less bass and such. The effect ranges from barely significant to downright startling. Firesign Theatre albums wind up sounding as though they were Dolby 5.1. Classical music gets depth and dimension. Rock ranges from the above to all over the place, as mixdowns add phase info. The original circuit had a null switch to balance for maximum effect by holding it down and turning your balance control for minimum sound (maximum phase cancelation), plus a rear volume. So guess what? I just checked, and Dynaco's successor, Panor, is selling a similar box for 49.00. Go to www.dynaco.com and click on "store." It doesn't appear to have the handy null circuit, but it does have a volume control...plus a center channel output. They are billing it as a home theatre decoder. Don't know about that, but the original does wonders for listening without a bunch of nasty circuitry. Be interesting to know how well it compares. They'd have to go out of their way to mess up a passive circuit! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2002 Author Share Posted May 16, 2002 Just noticed you mentioned "...another amp." Absolutely not, either for homemade or the Hafler box. All fed from the mains. Of course, Klipsh owners have way too much amp anyway! Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 Not me -- I got a measly 15 watt triode amp. I don't think I can push another set of speakers with it. I do have a free channel on the amp driving my sub. So where do I stick this thing? There is no online documetation for it. Attached is my system configuration. ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-16-2002 at 04:13 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2002 Author Share Posted May 16, 2002 Hmmm...being a horn freak, I don't know anything about RF7s. My ST-70 at 35/channel supplies more than I can ever use (and I do pipe organ as well as Midnight Oil) to my horns and Frazier Monte Carlo's (c. 1970 96 db/watt/meter). I suspect your amp would be adequate with this setup. I am sure yours makes up in clean what your missing in volume. I know I'd prefer clean to loud any day... Anyway, to use a Hafler circuit with amplification, you'd have to reamplify the signal after the circuit. Probably still better than digital, but sort of defeats the purpose of minimum intrusion. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 uhg - i was editing my post while you were responding. at any rate -- where do you stick this thing? see the pic of my system config in my last post. BTW -- the RF7's are horn loaded, at least they try to be I can drive people out of the room with 15 watts no problem. What I'm worried about is the impedence. What kind of load will that present to my amp? ------------------ Deanf>s> Cary AE-25f>s>SuperAmpf>s> - Sonic Frontiers Line 1 - Sony DVP-S9000ES - Klipsch RF7's SVS 20-39 CS Plus - Samson S1000 - HSU Research elec. crossover - MIT/Monsters f>s> Inside every small problem is a large problem struggling to get outf>c>s>-- 2nd Law of Blissful Ignorancef>s>c> This message has been edited by deang on 05-16-2002 at 04:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2002 Author Share Posted May 16, 2002 "at any rate -- where do you stick this thing?" LOL:-) Depends upon your attitude towards it! Really: It goes in your power output lines before your main speakers. It provides a feed for them, as well as the rear. The new one they are selling provides a center feed as well, but no one says (Well, except PWK) you've got to use it. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 A simple way to test this type of setup: 1.) Fronts connected as per normal 2.) Rears: Left Amp + to Left Speaker + Right Amp + to Right Speaker + Connect a 10 ohm 10 watt,(fixed or variable),wirewound resistor between the left and right rear speakers negative posts. Do not provide a return path to the negative,(-) terminal of the amplifier. I used a setup like that for a number of years. The wiring setup appeared in an audio magazine from the 70's and results were variable but generally highly satisfying and sometimes startlingly effective. ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2002 Author Share Posted May 16, 2002 Good job! Good memory, too. Wish I could remember all the stuff I read in the 70's. Don't suppose you remember how to calculate resistive circuits for VU meters? But that's another post. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted May 17, 2002 Share Posted May 17, 2002 Dave....I dug out the H/K 900+ manual...all it says about the enhanced stereo setting is that it "should be used to enhance(convert) any stereo source into spatially expanded sound. When playing any stereo source, if your 900+ has been installed utilizing four or eight speakers, the sound will emerge from each speaker filling the room with sound that is almost as exciting as authentic 4-channel. It may also be used to spatially enhance a monophonic source." The old tech guy who replaced a couple of pots and a light in it a few years back told me that circuitry is very similar to dolby surround circuitry...he said that I could use the H/K on enhanced stereo setting and the sound would come out almost exactly like Dolby surround decoding...so close there would be no noticeable difference. I tried it and he was right. That's all I can actually tell you about it unless I scan in the HUGE electronic schematics and email them to you...you may not be able to read it tho...big double-sided sheet, but very small print....the old guy even said "that damned thing has more bells and whistles circuitry in it than any damned receiver I have ever seen...I spent hours and hours studying it...had alot of fun, too!...never seen anything like it before!! Thank God you had the schematic for it!!" ------------------ If you want to send a private message, or have already done so, be aware I have not as yet been able to retrieve them. Send e-maill instead, please...just note Klipsch forum in the heading so it doesn't get deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 17, 2002 Author Share Posted May 17, 2002 While some such circuits can do a passable job for movies and such, I prefer to pass my music through as little processing as possible. The passive Hafler circuit I do consider to be processing, simply extracting all of what is already there. It has no effect whatsoever on a mono source, and that is a good thing. Of course, if it sounds good, it IS good. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good2BHome Posted May 17, 2002 Share Posted May 17, 2002 Here is a link I stumbled across sometime in the past about the Surround idea. It has a good diagram. If you follow all the links you will know all the basic principles. http://www.howstuffworks.com/surround-sound5.htm I have been using this idea/concept since 1973, but in a little different way. I have a McIntosh C-26 Pre-Amp which has a provision for two sets of speakers powered by one Amp (MC-2505). I use the Main as a standard stereo hook-up. For the remote, I connect the Hot(+) from the right and left to a single speaker, which is placed at the rear. This gave me 3-Channel Surround. Several years ago, I bought a used Dynaco ST-120 (I built one while in college) knowing I could use just one channel as a mono amp without damaging it. The C-26 also has a Center channel output which I connected to the ST-120 for a Front Center channel. This gives me 4 Channel Surround. Caveats: This works for my equipment, it may not be Healthy for you particular equipment. Positioning (the Sweet Spot) for the Rear Speaker is important to make this setup work. In addition the efficiency of the Center and Rear speakers in relation to the two main Right and Left speakers must be considered. Four identical speakers works best!! Only in the last 6 days have I had the pleasure of having 4 identical speakers. I now have 4 Cornwalls (2 1980 and 2 1975). It does make a difference. I previously was using a pair Quartets as the Center and Rear. Good speakers but, the 2 "new" Cornwalls are a real improvement. Now I need to decide what to do with the Quartets. Mike ------------------ 4 Channel Audio: 1980 Cornwalls Quartets as Rear & Center The following McIntosh I bought NEW in 1971: MR-74, C-26, MC-2505 Dynaco 120 Amp. as Center This message has been edited by Good2BHome on 05-18-2002 at 08:34 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted May 17, 2002 Share Posted May 17, 2002 COOL!Obviously my Organic Data Storage System worked for once 8~)>. The authour of that piece added the why to my how and in very few words. Thanks for the link Good2BHome ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 18, 2002 Author Share Posted May 18, 2002 An interesting setup, indeed. The Quadapter approach is not so fussy, though if you move around the field, the effect changes. In either case, however, we are approaching extraction of available out-of-phase info in a minimul way without further processing. That was the point of the original post. There are many who hold that anything more than two speakers is heresy (as it were). I find this no more sensible than if there were those who insisted that anymore than one is wrong. Soundfields in the real world are multi-dimensional. That extra information exists in 2 channel recordings...so why discard it? OTOH, why use more electronic overkill to extract it than necessary? BTW, we are quite close. I live in west Flower Mound. Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: 21rst Century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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