lo123 Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 I'm probably being over cautious but figured someone would know the answer to this. Considering using this product on Heritage Walnut Oiled (WO) speakers. Anyone know if unfinished wood on the Murphy's label means like Birch - Raw from a Heritage perspective? Seems like the walnut oil based stain would act as a sealer, but I'm concerned that the product directions do not define what unfinished means. If perhaps "finished" means coated with lacquer or poly, then I don't want to use this stuff on my oil stained walnut veneer. Also, can this product be used on the front and rear of the speakers, the parts with the black paint finish, no stained veneer? Thanks for any experience using this product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I used it one time on my lacquer mahogany K-horns and wished I hadn't -- it increased the contrast in the grain. That apparently looks good in some grains, but might not where you don't want the contrast increased. It's not supposed to work that way on lacquer finishes, but it did on my 45-year old mahogany. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I use Murphys on my laquered zebrawood Cornwalls and it brings them back to life. I don't think it is supposed to be used on oil finishes. I'd stick with boiled linseed oil as Klipsch recommends. Others here use tung oil and various other products. If you do a forum search you're sure to find many recommendations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lo123 Posted June 13, 2012 Author Share Posted June 13, 2012 Thanks for the responses, I'll research forum "hits" for likely topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 No, no, no, no . . . a thousand times no. I would never use the stuff on anything made of wood unless it had an absolutely impermeable finish and it had grimy foot traffic on it. It seems to me the manufacturer makes it for cleaning oak floors with a very tough and thick coat of varnish. I looked at the material safety sheet about a year ago. This stuff is made from potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) and vegitable oil, and maybe some alcohol or glycol. I'll let you Google for the sheet and look at Wikipedia. The typical lemon oil is light motor oil (mineral oil) with some lemon perfume but it is 100 times safer than Murphys. WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Gil, Thanks for your unique quality info! Is there any safe way for me to try to reverse the slightly darkened grain on my mahogany K's? It's not a dramatic change, but I'd like to return to how it was before if possible. Refinishing is out of the question -- I'd rather let it be than do anything other than Formby's. Note that some find it very beneficial and like the appearance. It does make for nice-looking, slightly more dramatic Zebrawood, so it's not necessarily all bad. But I'd most likely not use it now, either. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Tung oil is awesome, and I am also a big fan of Scott's Liquid Gold. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 To answer Larry C.'s question. I've read about oxalic acid being used to bleach wood. And sometimes even Clorox bleach. I would say the cure could be worse than the disease. It seems to me you could wind up with something other than the original color, but it will be ligher. I've never tried using any such bleaching agent. Therefore, leaving well enough alone may be best. By way of background: a potash based chemical historically has been used to create color. It reacts with the tannins in the wood. http://www.garrettwade.com/product.asp?pn=99P61.08 My thought is that the beautiful mahogany pieces from the 1700's and 1800's in the Art Institute of Chicago were colored this way. OTOH, I tried the product and a scrap of mahogany went to an unattractive deep brown. Maybe the solution was too strong. I built one cherry piece from The Bartley Collection and did not stain it at all. Natural cherry is rather bland. If you wait four or five years it turns to a rust color (even with varnish on it) but by natural oxidation. That is what happened to the Bartley piece. It seems though that manufacturers can't sell this concept of waiting several years and they will stain cherry. One other technique is to apply sodium hydroxide (lye) and this speeds up the process to taking place in a few seconds. I suspect this just oxidation rather than a reaction with tannin. It is not that I have a grudge against Colgate and its Murphy's products -- there are several. But there is a problem that you have to read the fine print with understanding. Imagine that someone suggested lathering up some Ivory soap in a bucket of water and then applied it to your speaker box. Horrors. Horror 1 is the causic. Horror 2 is water. WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Thanks, Gil! No better answer, I'm sure. What about Formby's furniture cleaner (the blue stuff)? What if I left it to soak in? It doesn't sound promising if the tannins have already reacted with the potash. Obviously I should have tried in on an out-of-the way place first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I don't know exactly what the blue stuff might be, Larry. Can you give a little more identification and the MSDS? My guess is that a chemical reaction has taken place and can not be reversed. That is why chemicals are used to intentionally get color -- the process is permanent. But that is just stating the obvious. Sorry to hear about the problem. WMcD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 It's called something like Formby's furniture cleaner. I sent an e-mail to a seemingly expert wood applications outfit, and will try some others, but I'm afraid you're right. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmvette Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Do not use oxalic acid! It can be used for small repairs or black streaks (water damage), but you better be prepared for a complete refinish as you can't spot treat with it on a pair of finished speakers and expect it to blend it. Just wanted to warn so nothing was hurt; I'm sure you weren't going this direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 I am looking at re-veneering, but with Klipsch's input if possible. This is at least a couple of months away, but I'll keep folks updated if you're interested. I sure hate to lose the Klipsch original, but it's no longer pretty to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Larry, If you have a spot on the back of the speaker where you can experiment, try some 4/0 Steel Wool with Mineral Spirits. You might likr what you end up with then you can re-oil them with some Watco. W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Thanks for your input, W.C. I expect to have a fine furniture restorer over (in about a month) and will get his advice on your suggestion. Of course, I should have done just what you suggest with the Murphy's to begin with! My finish is/was lacquer, so I don't know how that would work out. A good thing: Klipsch was conscientious about extending the full finish into the top hat interior, so at least we have some pre-Murphy's area for comparison. Other than that, the K-horn doesn't really have an area in the back -- all finished surfaces are on the front, or on the sides of the top hat which are also meant to be seen in full glory. From what Gil has said and quoted, the adverse staining worked its way well into the grain, not just the surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panacea Engineering Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Larry, The Mineral Spirits will remove the lacquer and actually "Lift" the stain. Homer Formby's refinishing kit consist of 4/0 Steel Wool and Mineral Spirits labeled as Homer's "Special Formula". Believe me, I have used this method for 40 years and it will get you back to the natural wood, just takes time. I have not found it to attack the glue used in the veneer process. The key is doing it in layers and not dousing it in the Mineral Spirits. A lot of people think more is better, but not in this case, that is why it takes so much time to refinish something.....Lots of rubbing. It is the same way when you apply the Watco, you must do it in layers and if you wet sand with 600 grit betwen them you will get a finish you can be proud of. I'm sure that others have their own method, this particular one just works for me....YMMV[] W. C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 Well, this is above my pay grade in wood finishing. My interpretation is that it has worked its way into the wood fiber and 's not just a surface stain. I'll run this and other ideas by a firm I've used before, and have them do it if he likes the idea after looking at the K's. I also forwarded the issue to Klipsch and hope to be in touch with someone there at some point. Whatever is decided, the K's will probably have to go into a shop, since I don't have the work space or ventilation to do anything here at home. Like I say, i'll bring what I find out back here. But I ain't doing anything alone where this is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 The Mineral Spirits will remove the lacquer and actually "Lift" the stain. Homer Formby's refinishing kit consist of 4/0 Steel Wool and Mineral Spirits labeled as Homer's "Special Formula". Believe me, I have used this method for 40 years and it will get you back to the natural wood, just takes time.Things seem to be moving in the kind of direction you suggest. A firm I'm in touch with proposes to use lacquer thinner "to pull the Murphy's oil soap out of the finish." Then, they would re-lacquer. They describe it as a slow process, taking 2-4 applications, which sounds like your suggestion. They think that will take the "color" out. Due to vacation travel, I won't get to this before the end of July. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 Heli, thanks for your input, which reassures me that the local finish restoring firm is exactly on track with what you suggested. I makes me feel better about the whole thing. They'll pick up the K's in the last week of July, and work on it step by step. I'm glad the original finish was preserved inside the top hat (I hope so, anyway!). Probably take a month or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 2, 2012 Share Posted July 2, 2012 This is the local firm I selected; they look excellent: http://www.schoenbauer.com/our_history.html Klipsch said they don't do restoration and recommended against re-veneer. So, it looks like all us great minds are on the same track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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