Would like impressions on KLF-20..

[stringless]

Howdy, folks.

I've searched the forums a bit, but can't quite find what I'm looking for. Here's what's going on:

I built a home cinema out of a 9 x 12' bedroom, based around a 7-foot screen, under which now sit 3 SF-2s. The surrounds are SB-2, and those are as big as I can go due to space and layout constraints.

I also have a separate two-channel system made around a pair of '87 walnut Forte, and have had them for nearly 10 years. I'm well-aquainted with the sound of horns, especially horn midrange -- and that's what the SF2 lacks. It's a good little speaker, but it ain't no Forte. The Forte is voice magic, it's violin magic, it's just pure sonic bliss, and I want to give as much of that as I can to my home cinema.

I would love to go with 3 Fortes as my front speakers, but no space. There are objects d' art I display under the screen, and Fortes are just too fat. They'd chew up all the space under the screen.

So, wanting a horn midrange, and since I can't afford (who the @$@! can!) Palladium, I got to searching, and found the KLF-20. Size-wise it's as big as I can manage. The crossover points are very similar to the Forte -- 750hz and 7khz. I'm selecting speakers based on size and driver layout, not sound.. I know. Mortal sin. But it is what it is, I cannot change the cinema around. The way it is is the only way it can be. I already beat my head into the wall over this when I built it. I'm just hoping the KLF-20 has *some* of the Forte midrange magic. Even if it's "different" what I"m looking for is for the midrange to be done by horn.

My questions:

1. It's a no brainer that the KLF-20 should trump the SF2 in terms of midrange and everything else. But having never heard a pair, and not having any that I can listen to, how is their timbre? Their "sound"? Would they integrate nicely with my SB-2s that I have as surrounds? Remember I can't get a bigger speaker back there, not even by an inch.

2. Compared to the Forte (I), how's the midrange? I have heard a friend's Forte II with a Tractrix mid, and I'm not entirely sure I prefer it to my original's exponential mid. How's the rest of the sound? Does it have that same ethereal transparent nature of the Forte with similar quality of bass? Deep, tight, controlled? These KLF's will be driven by the same receivers I use with my Fortes and in the cinema -- I have a pair of Panasonic XR-55s and they do magic with the Fortes and SF2. I don't want flatulent, loose bass --- I get plenty of that at my local multiplexes, thank you. The idea here is to top even what the top-shelf theaters around here have in terms of hi-fi sound, not sheer SPL. Something like Master and Commander and Titanic I play with dialog 40 to 60 and explosion peaks to 90-95db. That's almost cinema-loud as it is. I use no dynamic range compression and don't touch the volume knob while the movie's playing.

3. I need to search this particular subject but while I"m here may as well get your input -- I hear there was a glue issue with the KLF line. Is this common enough that I have a high chance of getting a bum cabinet considering I'm looking for two pairs? I already read it's a fairly easy fix -- what I'd like to know is roughly what % have flaked out -- it's something I can use as leverage to drop the price. I need 3 minimum, ideally two pair, keeping one for spares.

4. Anything I should know? Parts availabilty is good? I had to replace my Forte tweeter diaphragms, and Klipsch *made* me a new set and mailed 'em to me, the total bill was 17 dollars per diaphragm. Does the KLF enjoy this level of support? I'm loath to ask about "upgrades" because people have different ideas on sound, but I will ask if the cabinet is decent as it came from Hope, or does it have any glaring deficiencies that most KLF owners gripe about?

5. Was the most common finish black? Whatever speakers go into this cinema have to be all black.

I have all the time in the world to find me two pairs of these. Right now this is the beginning of an idea, the very first planning steps. Any help will be appreciated.

[Beechnut]

Do you want KLF20s cause they are 3-way?

There are several floor standing speakers if dimensions are you biggest concern. Especially around the footprint of KLF20s

For HT, I'm not sure the KLF20 would beat out a RF7 or RF7ii. Bigger problem is you want your front stage to be timbre matched. Not sure watch would match those.

Timbre matched meaning this: As something travels from left to right on the screen, it should do so seamlessly. You shouldnt be able to say, "K, train is in the left speaker, now it's in the middle speaker, ooh now it's in the right speaker." In the reference series, this is done because the timbre matched sets use the same horn and driver in the LCR speakers, or front stage.

[jbsl]

I had KLF 20s and now have Fortes(new crossover from Bob Crites, new midrange and tweeters from Bob) and think the Forte is much better.

Now do some upgrades to the KLF 20s and they could sound very good but for me I still think the Fortes would work better. The Forte bass is better to my ears.

[stringless]

Beechnut:

Yes. And not just any 3-way speakers, Beechnut. The Magic Trick is to have a horn midrange as well as a horn tweeter.

The lower you can get away from the cones and into the horns the better, ime. Fortes and Cornwalls are 700-ish hz. Klipschorn is 400hz. Those are all so much lower than my Synergy's 2.8khz and the RF7's 1.2khz.

The only skinny speaker Klipsch makes now with a horn midrange is Palladium.

Why am I stuck on having a horn midrange? Blame my Fortes. Blame the Altec A4s in the moviehouse I grew up with. Because no other mirdrange driver I've heard will do what a horn mid does. If I had unlimited space and money, my theater would have 3 new Cornwalls, Jubilees or Klipschorns in false corners behind a perforated screen, two Heresies for surrounds and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But I'm limited by money, space and availability, so it came down to the KLF, a speaker I had never even heard of until I had the idea to go hunting for a skinny speaker with a midrange horn.

I have 3 identical speakers up front. I have zero timbre issues up front, nor in the back. And when / if I go KLF-20, it'll be 3 of them up front, and I'll even try to get all 3 of them from roughly the same vintage. I don't belive in having a "special" center channel. When you go to a movie theater, there's no "special" center channel. It's 3 of the same up front. The only reason people make "special" centers is because most people have their screens so low to the ground they can't put a full-sized 3rd speaker in the center. I got around that by raising the screen, and I got away with that because of the chairs I use.

Put another way, the chairs dictated where the the screen went, and that in turn freed up space to put 3 floorstanders under the screen.

Once you taste 3 identical speakers up front, you can't go back.

My "timbre" question was more on how the KLF-20s will get along with the SB2s in the back. A back-to-front pan, for example, would show any gross mismatch. Think of the slow overhead pass by the sub in Hunt for Red October, or the chopper in Titanic, coming up from behind and above the listener.

My hope is that the KLF series is close enough in voicing to do well with my SB2 rears.

[stringless]

I had KLF 20s and now have Fortes(new crossover from Bob Crites, new midrange and tweeters from Bob) and think the Forte is much better.

Now do some upgrades to the KLF 20s and they could sound very good but for me I still think the Fortes would work better. The Forte bass is better to my ears.

I'm not getting rid of my fortes ;o) I'm not looking to replace those.

I just can't use three of them in my theater. The Fortes are in a completely different system, in a completely different room.

Put another way, a trio of KLF-20 would replace an existing trio of SF-2. Make sense? I just threw the Forte in as a baseline, because many people have them and are familiar with them, and so am I. It's a good baseline to extend comparisons from.

What I'm looking for is to bring as much of that magic horn midrange into my cinema-- without the sideways bulk of the old-school Heritage designs.

I love my fortes. Why would I want to get rid of 'em?

So -- Forte bass vs. KLF-20 bass -- what's the difference? I know the Forte has proably the best bass I've heard short of a Klipschorn or Altec A-series. So what's the deal with KLF bass -- tubbier? Thuddy? SLow? Less forceful? Less impact? My cinema does have a sub for LFE.

Let's talk midrange, which is my biggest concern. How's piano, violins, cello, guitar, voices through the KLF? How convincing would be a ratchet wrench, or a zippo lighter be? Such things are borderline miraculous on the Forte, but ordinary and unremarkable in my SF-2. Usable,sure, and even enjoyable. But then I walk to the other room, hear the Fortes, and go "Man, if only.."

[Beechnut]

Awesome. Since we are brainstorming, take a look at the pro series Lascallas. Width would be a issue,but 3 top sections of a split Lascallas gets you an awesome midrange horn and a horn for the higher end. Maybe a manageable footprint around your furnishings. Good luck in your quest. I've never heard the KLF series. there are a few here that rave about them for their 2ch rigs.

Also, awesome not having to comprimise on a horizontal center and having the same front 3.

[t-man]

OK, a 7 ft screen on a 9' wall. Are you hoping to fit all THREE speakers UNDER the screen? You must have it high up against the ceiling. I would think that 3 fatter/wider speakers would be better than taller and much DEEPER speakers that stick out into your room. If the Fortes don't fit, how much more space are you gaining with a KLF 20? If it's close, have you considered Quartets? Almost the same sound as your Forte and would be plenty of boom in that size room. Line up 3 under the screen, lower the screen a bit for more comfortable viewing (is your ceiling black?), and enjoy. If three Fortes don't fit, bring the L and R in a bit toward center, toe them in and experiment with a phantom center.

I have KLF 20s now. They are quite deep, and need room to breath in the back (ported, but PRs need room, too). They sound good and are modded with upgraded crossovers and Ti diaphragms. I had to reinforce the cabinets. Yes, I do think you have a HIGH probability of having cabinet issues with the KLFs. Most people don't even know the problem exists until you show them. Of all the recent designs (90s and beyond) they, along the KLF 30 are the closest thing to your Forte's in sound since the Forte's were discontinued (excluding Heresys, but needing a subwoofer). I had a set of Quartets before my KLFs and was also able to compare them side by side when they were both still stock. They were very close in quality - even with the smaller size of the Quartet, I preferred them in ways to the KLF. In the end, I kept the KLF because they physically worked better in my room. They LACK the classic Klipsch appearance and are boring to look at, but they do get the tweeter higher which works. I much prefer the exterior and grill designs of the older classic Klipsch. In a room the size of yours and a screen the size of yours, I would not hesitate to do 3 Quartets over the KLF if you can fit them in.

As for rears, the original KG1 is a sealed design so you can smack that right on your wall. Looks just like a mini Forte/Quartet!

[Fotog]

Howdy, folks.

I've searched the forums a bit, but can't quite find what I'm looking for. Here's what's going on:

I built a home cinema out of a 9 x 12' bedroom, based around a 7-foot screen, under which now sit 3 SF-2s. The surrounds are SB-2, and those are as big as I can go due to space and layout constraints.

So, wanting a horn midrange, I got to searching, and found the KLF-20. Size-wise it's as big as I can manage.

My questions:

1. It's a no brainer that the KLF-20 should trump the SF2 in terms of midrange and everything else. But having never heard a pair, and not having any that I can listen to, how is their timbre?

3. I need to search this particular subject but while I"m here may as well get your input -- I hear there was a glue issue with the KLF line.

5. Was the most common finish black? Whatever speakers go into this cinema have to be all black.

From personal experience - the KLF-20's are pretty nice. They need some breathing room in back for the rear ports - a foot or so. Back separation is common and yes it is a VERY EASY fix. I didn't even remove my backs. A dab of gorilla glue and been good for a couple years now. Have zero concerns over this issue and would give it zero consideration when looking to buy. Some say that the KLF-20's are the BEST of the legend line. I originally choose them over the 30's and now owning both - still feel the 20's are tops. Bigger bass in the 30's. I have a pretty small sub by sub standards and have no need for more. The KLF's have plenty for me and my taste. Black is a very common finish. I'm successfully running a KLF-C7 as a lone rear. Might be an option for you as surrounds. Actually, I ran my 20's as mains for a few years with Polk Monitor 70's as surrounds and really liked it a lot.

Of course - my current Legend set up does rock the house. FWIW

[Schu]

Howdy, folks.

Would like impressions on KLF-20..

yeah... pretty good.

[moray james]

There are a few things to consider with KLF speakers. You have to check the cabinets with a mallet to make sure the baffles are solid and repair if not. You just cannot tell by listening many are thought to be just fine and they are not.

KLF20 and 30 are fitted stock with the poly tweeter diaphragm which is a very poor tweeter compared to a phenolic and trash compared to the ti diaphragms. The KLF20 and 30 have phenolic mid diaphragms. The height of the KLF20 is better for horm position than either Forte or Forte ll but the KLF20 could still stand to be raised higher to get the centre of the mid horn up to ear level when you are seated. Either a four post stand or n addition volume of riser box would do the job and look good this is especially necessary if you are using them as a rear channel.

The horn (mid) in a KLF20 and 30 is a better designed horn than the one in either the Forte (K700) or the Forte ll. The horn in the KLF20 and 30 is capable of being run right out to 20 KHz but not the Forte ll horn. The KlF horn is however a very cheply made horn as it has very thin walls whic can flex under hard drive. The horn is a very good design it is simply cheaply made. Re inforce the horn walls and damp with dynamat and you have a fine horm which I like better than either Forte horn.

You should be considering an upgrade to all ti diaphragms, if you ebay serch you can fond a company in Ontario which has bought out a Klipsch service ceentre and is selling parts very cheap Ti drives for mids and the tweeters which are K79. Best prices I have ever seen get them while they are available. The titanium diaphragms are head and shoulders better than the phenolic ones and are what Klipsch use on the H3 and the CW3.

Most KLf don't have much or any brace work inside and adding bracework is always a good plan. I have two pair of KLF20 and rebuilt one set for my daughter with the vents on the back of the cabint swapped to the front. I had all four baffles totally removed so it was not a big job to do. This lets her place them right up to a wall as she is still in university and in mostly small rooms but also useful for rear duty where many floks don't have a lot of extra space.

You might consider building these from the ground up yourself the mid horns are available from Klipsch tof $20.00 each (lens) and you can buy K79 all day long for cheap. Bob Crites can build you crossovers or you can do that yourself. There are plenty of good woofers which would work fine in a design like this and you could build fresh cabinets with lots of brace work designed in from the start.

You might also want to take a look for some CF3 which I consider to be a better speaker than a KLF20 and which will integrate over a shorter distance than will a three way speaker. You could also have a look at audio karma dot org and check out the econo-waave projects. The larger the horn the better. There is a QSC horn used in some of the econo-wave designs which is a little bit larger than the CF3 horn which would be excellent for your application. If you have the physical room and you want even better dynamics then two way La Scala's would be killer to consider. Have fun and keep us posted as to which way you decide to go with your speakers. Best regards Moray James.

[moray james]

Here is a member who is building something similat to what I suggested. They should sound really good. Best regards Moray James.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/167414/1808795.aspx#1808795