What is a good match for Forte or Heresy?

[MikeFord]

I like my subs to do more than fill in the bottom, I like to high pass the mains at 50 to 80 hz and run all the bass through the sub. My cheesy little 125 watt KLH 12" Costco special did "ok" with my old 88 db/w speakers and simply abysmally with the Forte's (haven't tried the Heresy with them but expect no different), it just could not level match, exceeded its limits by a bunch.

Now what concerns me is that while its 125 watts and cheesy, less cheese and more watts still isn't a lot more db. What is going to be a practical minimum subwoofer to use for both music and movies?

[twistedcrankcammer]

I like my subs to do more than fill in the bottom, I like to high pass the mains at 50 to 80 hz and run all the bass through the sub. My cheesy little 125 watt KLH 12" Costco special did "ok" with my old 88 db/w speakers and simply abysmally with the Forte's (haven't tried the Heresy with them but expect no different), it just could not level match, exceeded its limits by a bunch.

Now what concerns me is that while its 125 watts and cheesy, less cheese and more watts still isn't a lot more db. What is going to be a practical minimum subwoofer to use for both music and movies?

Do you want new or used?

If you want new, spend about $1000 on an Epic, that is about as cheap as you can get into the game!

Roger

[CECAA850]

Do you want new or used?

Do you want to buy or build?

Do you have a budget?

[MikeFord]

No limits or budget restrictions, no wood working facilities of my own, but I know people. I live in the OC of SoCal.

I have a KLH 12" in the living room now, a much smaller old high end (thinking Sonus?) sub someplace in a box, a ServoDrive Contrabass kit less cabinet in a box, parts for two M&K dual 12" subs in various boxes that I plan to assemble "real soon", and I am eyeing some Lab 12 and McCauley 18's I've found at dandy prices. Doing an F20 is very tempting.

But I don't want to go tearing down some path that doesn't work well with the Klipsches. I like the bass on the Forte, so despite my desire to high pass them I would like the sub to retain the same character of sound and blend well.

[CECAA850]

I've used ported, horn loaded and IB subs with Klipsch speakers. The integration and calibration of the sub is more important than the type of sub as far as how the sub blends with your speakers. You can make an expensive sub sound like crap and a cheap-o sound pretty decent. It all depends on how much care and time you spend setting it up.

[Thaddeus Smith]

Doing an F20 is very tempting.

succumb to the temptation.

[MikeFord]

For years I used Quad ESL63 speakers, and no diddling after the sub was made seemed to ever make one work better or worse, so it never occured to me it might be possible with the Klipsch. Nothing seemed to help my KLH 12, except keeping the volume very low.

I've heard one of the smaller M&K subs with a set of Quartets in a smaller than my livingroom sized room, and they seemed good, but terrible placement and unfamiliar music made it hard to seriously judge performance.

F20 is tempting, but its one of many horn options in the running. Does it work well with the Klipsch speakers?

BTW I think I could complete one of the M&K subs in a day, but I don't have space to work due to other higher priority projects.

[CECAA850]

For years I used Quad ESL63 speakers, and no diddling after the sub was made seemed to ever make one work better or worse, so it never occured to me it might be possible with the Klipsch.

It all depends on how you diddled. If diddling is messing with controls and placement without measuring, then you probably had little luck. Proper sub diddle is performed with some type of measuring device. An SPL meter at the least, RTA or the like is even better. The brand of speakers your pairing your sub with is irrelevant as far as sub calibration is concerned.

[MikeFord]

Sub cancelation wasn't an issue, matching the character and I think Q within the environment of the room was the problem. Dipole and monopole bass sources excite different types of room modes. Long time use of the ESL63, appropriately named FRED, full range electrostatic dipole, is an increased sensitivity to any changes vs frequency as they are very seamless themselves. What worked for me best was an Enigma dipole panel sub, it didn't have much output as measured in the room, down 3 db by 24h, with a sharp drop below 20hz, it did almost perfectly match if not improve on the bass of the ESL63's.

Odd part was I had to order the sub without ever seeing or hearing it, and it was $2600 without an amp. I bought it because I was a bit kooky thinking I was missing something important with the Quads rolling off around 40hz. It more or less showed me that in general I wasn't missing anything, or much. Once educated it was a tough choice whether or not to keep them. Most of the reason I decided to keep them was that high passing the Quads made them sound better, much more depth. I knew if I returned them I wouldn't be happy without them.

Short version is that I am not worried about level matching with the Forte or Heresy, I want all of the bottom end to sound just the way I want. This is my concern when considering a horn vs direct radiator for a sub. The character of the sound more than the eq.

[mustang guy]

CECAA850 has a LOT of experience with different subs with Klipsch speakers. Dare I say as much as anybody in these forums?

In my humble opinion, horn loaded subs give more depth, and reproduce those bass tones effortlessly. Case in point a tiny little BF Autotuba I stuck in the trunk of a 68 Camaro. It has a tiny 8" el-cheapo driver and an even more el-cheapo 300 watt amp. I am running back speakers only (JL) and power from the Pioneer head unit only (no speaker amps). In all, I have under $400 in the system. It runs clear at 111db. I had two different veteran stereo installers sit inside and put on "Shake Yo Tailfeather". They both looked at me and grinned when the first thumps started. "Holy $hit, we have dual 10's that don't sound nearly that good." These are the guys that install systems every day, build custom enclosures and compete regularly in sound shows. Nuff said...

Since Heritage speakers are efficient (they play the music effortlessly), a horn loaded speaker is a better match. IMO of course.

[CECAA850]

Dipole and monopole bass sources excite different types of room modes.

I would think room nodes excited at a specific frequency would be the same regardless of the type of source.

Forte's and Heresy's both have direct radiating bass drivers. You might try a nice sealed sub to pair them with. You also might start a thread to see what types of subs are available in your area to listen to. You want the bottom end "to sound the way you want". No one but you knows what that is. If you could listen to some different configurations, it may save you some trial and error money in your purchase.

[MikeFord]

Dipole and monopole bass sources excite different types of room modes.

I would think room nodes excited at a specific frequency would be the same regardless of the type of source.

Forte's and Heresy's both have direct radiating bass drivers. You might try a nice sealed sub to pair them with. You also might start a thread to see what types of subs are available in your area to listen to. You want the bottom end "to sound the way you want". No one but you knows what that is. If you could listen to some different configurations, it may save you some trial and error money in your purchase.

I am always the twitchiest and most indecisive when I have the least choice. M&K dual 12 boxes are sitting in my garage along with drivers and two or three plate amps, so I can't really skip putting them together, and decent chance that will be the end of the search. Either they will sound fine, or close enough that I won't be able to really decide until umpty ump other details in the system are sorted out.

Dipoles have nulls up and down, right and left, so only the front to back modes get fully going, and diagonal only partially.