fire pinch Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Oh well, what can I say... THEY ARE SO AWESOME FOR THEIR SIZE! WOW! And their woofers are so rigid when I touched them! Talk to me about very well built subwoofers! And I brang my Hsu VTF-3... sure, I always bring it now when I want to know how it compares against other good subwoofers. For their size, the Sunfire are completely untouchable. However, I was surprised to find that my VTF-3 compare very well to the sunfire in very deep bass. I was like... wow! the VTF-3 is able to do that too? Well, at the store, the VTF-3 was less powerfull. But the seller, as many other sellers Ive met, told me that the woofer wasnt normal. He saw like me that the woofer fires backward instead of forward. HE means that the woofer goes back, during a boom, of lets say 10 cm back and 1 cm front. Well, not 10 cm but he said 10 cm just to explain me visually the proportion forward/backward firing. And when we (the sunfire dealer and me) pushed the VTF-3 at its limit, this was loud. But the woofer seemed to crah INTO the sub because it goes back so much. Im gonna talk about this to Hsu for sure of that problem. Maybe the VTF-3 doesnt give its maximum power because of that. However, the VTF-3 sound quality should not be worse because of that. In fact, I found that the VTF-3 is a bit more accurate and musical than the sunfire. My ears told me that... well MY ears. Maybe other people who own the VTF-3 and have heard the Sunfire will not say this. But its what I found. The Sunfire goes more like Booooom... a very pure POWERFULL beast!!! For HT people who want the smallest and the most powerfull sub, this is the way to go IMHO. P.S.: that was for the Sunfire Junior and the Mark IV. For sure, the VTF-3 had the same if not more output than the Junior. But the other beated MY VTF-3 (defective) in power. Even if my VTF-3 wouldnt be defective, I think that the Mark IV should have the edge in power. Well, lets wait and see when the problem will be repaired! This message has been edited by fire pinch on 07-14-2002 at 08:13 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 10 cm of travel? Are you sure??? That's like 4" for us Americans. Doug ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 14, 2002 Author Share Posted July 14, 2002 L O L !!! Oh I just said what the seller told me... the 10 cm you saw was what the seller told me. That was not from me... well its not 10 cm but it was just a means to explain how the woofer move in a weird means. It is more backward firing... way more than forward firing. Sorry if I wasnt enough clear lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 14, 2002 Author Share Posted July 14, 2002 guhh! Sorry, now my post is edited for a better comprehension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 14, 2002 Share Posted July 14, 2002 Ahem hmm PinceFeu excuse me but I must say a few things The Sunfire Mark II,IV and Signature dont have a 10cm movement(even peak to peak)as the ignorant seller told you. Its more like two inches(on inch each way),I have all the SUnfires so I know a bit here.And I am sure the VTF-3 has a bit more output then the Sunfire Mark II or IV down low. The most impressive Sunfire is the Signature,as this unit had a full 6dB more output then the Mark II or Mark IV.The Signature stands toe to toe with the Velo HGS15 for HT.The only Velodyne that bests the Signature is the HGS18,its not any surprise as the Velo costs over 50% more and is a solid three-four times larger. The Super Junor is a funny sub,it beats much larger units and the cabinet is a 9" cube! LOL Talk about output per cubic inch here Its no rocket science to build a HUGE powerful sub(anyone can do that)but its an art to built a tiny sub with true sub bass and power. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 14, 2002 Author Share Posted July 14, 2002 Ahem ahem l'Oreille, Voici ce que j'ai écris/ here is what I wrote: "Well, at the store, the VTF-3 was less powerfull. But the seller, as many other sellers Ive met, told me that the woofer wasnt normal. He saw like me that the woofer fires backward instead of forward. HE means that the woofer goes back, during a boom, of lets say 10 cm back and 1 cm front. Well, not 10 cm but he said 10 cm just to explain me visually the proportion forward/backward firing." I talked about the VTF-3 WOOFER here, NOT THE SUNFIRE! And like I said, it didnt move of 10 cm, that was just to show u how much to woofer goes back instead of going front. Its just like a ratio 10:1. Sorry. I didnt bring enough precision! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 14, 2002 Author Share Posted July 14, 2002 Oh! And l'Oreille, I will be honnest and I will say that I dont think that MY VTF-3 (defective?) has more deep bass than the Sunfire Mark IV. That was very hard to tell the difference between them in output. Well, its what I found. Maybe, when I will have a new unit from Hsu or a repaired woofer, It will give more output. For now, the Sunfire Mark IV is a good unit. Very impressive... especially when u look at its size!!! BTW, im sure that the VTF-3 can give more output than now in reallity. Not sure of that, not sure until I will talk direct to Hsu... Im gonna get u informed! This message has been edited by fire pinch on 07-14-2002 at 08:59 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 15, 2002 Share Posted July 15, 2002 PinceFeu, Allright now,I get your HSU story.Still the 10:1 ratio is suspicious.Unless you get this idea from looking at the sub woofer cone.Sometimes looks can decieve Did you push on the HSU woofer cone(in the center next to the dustcap)?Does the woofer move with ease o is it stiff? You story is to say the leasy strange.E-Mail HSU and post what they say about this. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 Damn, I talked to Hsu yesterday. Well now it is 1:41 am here so yesterday (Monday) lol! He finds the situation very strange. Well, he told me to take off the woofer and changing the connector (-) (+)... reversing them. So maybe the problem will be solved. I didnt try that yet. If this solution doesnt work, he told me to call him again. And the problem would be, in that case, the amp. Stay tuned, I will give you more infos as soon as I get the woofer out of the box. Pinch EN FEU! lol! Firepinch. You are funny you, the_Ears with your pince feu : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 PiceFeu, Yep this could be only reversed polarity on the driver,but then again...hmm.Who inspected your sub,Dr HSU? I dont think so maybe someone had too much booze or was in a hurry when making the conections. Yep PinceFeu has a elitist ring to it or like Americans would read Pinc Fou. LOL TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 16, 2002 Author Share Posted July 16, 2002 LOL L'Oreille! Au moins, je le prends pas mal hehe Tant qu'à faire, j'ai juste à me nommer Pince fou la prochaine fois LOL!!!!! (At least, I dont take it bad / I talk about how he names me in french "Firepinch" "PinceFeu") Oh well, I saw that the connecters was reversed. The subwoofer didnt come direct from Hsu... notice that. LOL! That was like the first time Hsu heard that... woofer firing backward. I have to say... every people are not perfect... Anyway, each time I buy something, I have always bad lucks LOL! Im sure that if I buy a new AMD processor tomarrow, it gonna explode right out of the box! I hate that! Im gonna hook up my VTF-3 in my room today during the morning. Im in a hurry to see what will happen! BTW, I like that high mid-pass punch and maybe Im just not used to TRUE subwoofers which know how to play deep bass loudly. One thing I noted was that when u set up the crossover at 60 Hz, the VTF-3 is strangely more powerfull in deep bass. I was shoked to see my livingroom windows ratteling when I played the song Daft Punk - One more time. LOL! A pure pleasure to see! I phoned Hsu again yesterday during the afternoon and we talked almost 30 minutes togheter. Talk about great support! This guy is so patient and can spend all his time for you in order to help you. For the mid-pass punch, he understood. My Paradigm Monitor 9 are just not enough powerfull because of my cheapo AV-Receiver (Yamaha RXV-496) which give only 70W per tower. Hah! A true joke! I plan to buy a seperate amp, lets say a Bryston (dunno if I spell it well but its what dr. Hsu told me to look for). Hsu told me also to look for others brands but I remember the word Bryston. Is it a good amp maker? Well, Ive heard from many people that this amp is very good for powering mains speakers. I hope that with a big Bryston, im gonna have more mid-bass punch from my Paradigms. I will buy the Monitors 9 v.3 (I have the v.2 now). Maybe this new version is better for the mid-bass... the bass drivers have changed and they have now a bigger voice coil I think. I just hope that with this new Bryston amp will give me the mid-bass power I want. BTW, I must buy also another av-receiver... im selling mine for the moment. Hsu named Outlaws (I dont want to pay too much for this av receiver cuz my mains will not be powered with it). What do you think all about this? This message has been edited by fire pinch on 07-16-2002 at 11:43 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Edited, Still don't know how reversing the polarity of the sub would cause the driver to suck in dynamically like that...but the main thing is you got the sub working better, TV This message has been edited by TVodhanel on 07-17-2002 at 05:31 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 When I looked at the woofer, I didnt see any problem. The spider was at its place, the woofer was like... in top shape! I put the connectors at the right place like Hsu told me to do. Then after a second verification, I screwed the driver at its place. And... WOAW! Now, this is awesome!!! What can I say. I can turn it louder than before without hearing bloating sound. The woofer doesnt seem to go back like before anymore. I dont know why. Damn, sometimes, when an object is broken, I just touch it a little bit and all things are cured! LOL! Im a very strange person eh! Well now im able to shake the windows if I need too! When I put some songs, the floor, my desk where my computer, mouse is located too shake, all things are like "vented" by the VTF-3. LOL! Also, to have all this satisfaction, I set the crossover at 60 Hz instead of 90 Hz and it helps a lot the VTF-3 to handle what it is supposed to do. In many songs, I hear bass below 30 Hz I couldnt hear before!!! And damn, this sub has some very good authority DOWN TO 16 Hz!!! When I listened to some pipe organ, in max extension mode, the sub was powerfull like an earthquake! Just to tell you, Im able to get 105 dB from it at 16 Hz LOOOL! Well, just to make you remember of what I post lately, I will post my OLD results again: Note: Those dBs numbers reflect what I measured but I could hear distortion each time. Now, I can turn it like before (see numbers) but without the distortion I could hear before. Understand??? LOL! VTF-3 Max extension mode (Crossovered @ 90 Hz) 80 Hz 97.5 dB 63 Hz 101.5 dB 50 Hz 112.5 dB 40 Hz 114.5 dB 31.5 109 dB 25 Hz 107 dB 20 Hz 106.5 dB 16 Hz 105.5 dB Not bad eh! Well, even in my LARGER living room, the subwoofer is ALMOST performing THE SAME. I can even tell you that I feel more deep bass in that larger room. So the dBs number can be increased there below 40 Hz. Chaning of subject, I dont think that a 12 inches woofer is made to do mid-bass. I think more that the mid-bass should be done by my Paradigm towers. I'm just too much used to the mid-bass and "vibrations" which came from my Paradigm PS-1000 subwoofer. Some people tell in audioreview that they didnt appreciate the bass of SVS subwoofers right out of the box. I understand them. They told after that they were just not used to clean DEEP bass and their tower speakers are certainly under-powered like me so they dont get the mid-bass vibration their old subwoofer could do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 PinceFeu, Hmm,max output at 40Hz!I find the VTF-3 a bit weak at 30Hz considering how big the box is and the driver and amp used.It should keep the 40Hz output at 30Hz,its a big box after all. BTW did you measure this one meter from the sub or at listening position? See with my Sunfire Signature I get 116dB(a know site reported 117dB's!)at 31.5Hz one meter fom the sub.And even at listening position I get over 112dB's! With all my Sunfires(3) and two Carvers(Knight Shadow)subs going as one I get almost 120dB's at 31.5Hz,its ear pain and not anything one would listen to.And all these five small cubes are no larger(combined) then many latger subs(be it one larger sub)! In my living room(ahem main HT/Music room)the Velo HGS18,Relel B15 and Aerial belt a suffocating 124dB's(as far as the Rat Shack dB meter goes)and this is at listening position.At 20Hz it drops sharply(a lowish 115dB LOL)still nothing to sneeze at.I plan to add a few SVS's and JBL's and bring the 20Hz output to at least 124dB at 20Hz.Why just because I can,not I ever listen at over 112dB,I value my hearing a bit. My larger PC sound system(RSW10,KSW12/15 subs)can dish almost 118dB's at 31.5Hz,below 30Hz the output drops fast.I think its plenty for a PC system(RSW10 is corner loaded,KSW's are along the front wall). TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 The Ears, Humm well, in my living room this is pretty strange. The place is almost 3 times larger than in my bedroom and the bass is more powerfull than in my bedroom below 40Hz. I detect that with my ears. I didnt measure but lets say that im able to shake the windows in my living room but im not able in my bedroom. So I can easily get 110-112 dB there, down to 20 Hz or even 16 Hz... down to 16 Hz its hard to beleive but I must measure. My ears just detect that the sub is way flatter in my living room. Im sure that I get a flat response + or - 1 or 2 dB maximum. Since the sub is performing more than before, I must do a second test. The sub doesnt bottom out easily like before and it can play louder than before without the distortion I got before. But hey, I dont have the best Sunfire from Bob Carver. I dont think that the VTF-3 can be equal or beat the best Sunfire. It would be very unbeleivable for the price. Maybe, MAYBE this is possible. BTW, if some people say that the VTF-3 should be comparable in output to the SVS PC+ or CS+, which sub from SVS can beat that Sunfire? The SVS Ultra you have? If yes, where? Below 20,30,40 Hz? I DONT WANT TO START A DEBATE HERE LOL! But well, to know the truth, I would have to go again at that store, and I dont have the taste to go there again too much lol! That thing is heavy and its boring to go upstair->downstair and placing it into the car. Of course, you can beat me in output. This is comprehensible, you have so much subs lol! Im frustrated to know that I cant get more output in my bedroom than in my living room which is like 3 times larger. Im sure that my sub isnt well placed in my bedroom and I have SO MUCH THINGS in it! One day, im gonna do a big "ménage" and I will be able to place it where I think it should be located (in a corner). The problem is that I have something in all corner lol! Shizzz... And for how I measured my VTF-3, I was at 3 meters away from the sub... at the listening position (on my chair in front of my computer) in my bedroom. Well, I want to ask you this question: are all subwoofers measured from 1 meter? For example, when we see some TN datas, do we see numbers which were taken from 1 meter away? If it is the case, I will change immediatly my method and I will do another test and post my results! P.S.: The results posted here are not to proove than I get more powerfull bass than someone else ok? This is just to show you my progress (before I had bad lucks) and to show you how the VTF-3 is, in my bedroom PERDIOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 OHHHH! The_Ears, I forgot to tell you someting which is very important. I can tell you why the numbers are dropping below 40 Hz. Well, im NOT SURE. But I think that this is due to my very small bedroom (1470 cubic ft). So I think that below 40 Hz, the sound waves are too long. I mean that If I put a 20-30 Hz test tone, it will most likely play in the next room cuz the waves are too long. So this is why I can get more bass below 40 Hz in my living room which is almost 3 times larger. Maybe this is why im able to shake the windows in my living room. A good explanation? Well, its what I think. Maybe im wrong... anyway, more testing in the future. Maybe tommarow, maybe next week... when I will have the time. I will not raise the bar very high so I just hope for the moment that I will get 110 dB from 20 to 60 Hz (below the crossover point) from 1 meter at least in my living room. Maybe 115 dB? Well, I hope that I didnt hallucinate but deep bass was stronger there. This is confusing... Since I must take my measure nearer the sub, all things will change. Im sure of nothing now anymore! More news later !!! This message has been edited by fire pinch on 07-18-2002 at 12:37 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee_vr6 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 The sound waves are not too long to be heard in your room. How do they get 10hz in cars then? Your room placement is bad. ------------------ Gabe '83 La Scala birch raw '93 Chorus II black '94 Forte II oak oil '93 kg3.2 oak oil KSW-15 Ksw-200 SW-8 This message has been edited by killerbee_vr6 on 07-18-2002 at 03:57 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire pinch Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 LOL! Beleive me, the 10 Hz test tone you play in your car doesnt really play in your car. Most of the 10 Hz wave will play outside... you will rattle anything which is outside your car. Talk about this to a scientist who know very well optic physics. Maybe TV will tell you that im not wrong. Well, when I fire a 20 Hz test tone, nothing really shake in my bedroom but in my bathroom, all things rattle badly. This message has been edited by fire pinch on 07-18-2002 at 12:50 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee_vr6 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 You can get 10hz IN your car, or any small space for that matter. Trust me. ------------------ Gabe '83 La Scala birch raw '93 Chorus II black '94 Forte II oak oil '93 kg3.2 oak oil KSW-15 Ksw-200 SW-8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 There's no such thing as a room too small to play low bass...that is an old myth. Folks think because a 20hz soundwave is around 55ft long...the room would have to be that long to have 20hz develope. But they are forgetting that a soundwave doesn't have to unfold completely to be heard/felt/measured. If this WERE the case...headphones would be unable to play anything under what...500hz?....think about it In a tiny room like that 1400-1500 cu-ft, There really shouldn't be much of a bass rolloff under 40hz...in fact...it would be more typical to see a gradual rise in the bass response from 40hz and down due to *room gain*. If the room is 15x10x10(for example) room gain will start around 38hz.(the lowest axial mode) The formula for this is 565/LB = lowest axial mode(where LB = longest boundary in room). Once room gain begins, you'll typically see a 6-9dB/octave boosting as the freqs drop. So is you had *X* dB at 38hz....you should see about X+6dB at 19hz. THis assumes the subwoofer is designed to be flat to 19hz of course. When Tom Nousaine moved from his 2100 cu-ft shoebox to his new 7500 cu-ft room...he lost 8.1dB of room gain @20hz. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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