H/K 430 Receiver

[edster00]

I have a Yamaha CR-1020 (70wpc) that I bought new in '77, same time that I bought my Heresy's. It has been paired with the Heresy's ever since. IMHO the CR-1020 is a great choice to drive the Heresy's!

This message has been edited by edster00 on 07-27-2002 at 11:55 AM

[HDBRbuilder]

I would certainly HOPE that the 45 wpc of the Yamaha CR-800, and its 1976 cost of $580 would have SOMETHING besides its power advantage to benefit it over the $320(1976), 25 WPC H/K 430!! Same said for the Tandberg's 40 wpc and 1977 over $600 price tag!! Nevertheless, the diminutive H/K 430 is still one helluva performer, IMHO!!

I would venture to say that the 430's 25 wpc isn't exactly the ideal "pumper" for the Heresys' 12" woofer...but it should find a better match with Cornwalls, LaScalas/Belles, or k-horns, with their horn-loaded woofer sections. I will be finding out just how good it is with Belles and LaScalas(and maybe even Cornwalls) this weekend, hopefully!

------------------

I can now receive private messages

[mobile homeless]

While price can be an indicator of performance I have stopped using it as much of one as it has proved itself wrong quite a few times.

In addition, many times I have liked the lowest watt version of amplification in a series of amplifier given proper speakers. They tend to sound less coarse and more open generally speaking as there are usually fewer amplification devices and parts in general. On the other hand, sometimes the series encorporates a better quality power supply with more isolation, filtering, and/or better quality parts. In this case the results are likely to change but if all factors are the same, the lower watt device sounds better in many times.

The Yamaha Natural Sound series of the 70s was very well-made with nothing in their line since really competing in my view. On the other hand, I have to say that these amps just dont compare favorably to some of the better solid state amps around today which is why I was very interested when djk said that the CR-800 was a sonic step up from the H/K units under discussion. Still, I would like to hear one of these units.

It appears as if there was more changing between model numbers such as the H/k 430 to the 730 than simply power.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

kh,

Well, when I was doing my "watching and waiting" routine before I made my purchases in those days, I did alot of listening to different people's systems in addition to auditioning at the sound rooms of the PX and Audio Club. I had already decided to "go quad", even though, by the time I made my purchases, it was quite obvious to me that quad would be "dying on the vine" in the near future(late 75 to early 76), due in no small part to its extra cost and complexity at a time when the economies of the U.S. and most other nations were hurting and money was increasingly becoming "tighter."

What amazed me was how well-respected names like Marantz tended to be returned to the shop on so regular a basis...but each time it was for a different problem and this just wasn't one particular model, either. There were other "names" of that time that tended to be returned on regular basis, too...Fisher, Scott, etc...I even talked to the service tech foreman (an older guy who was certified on everything and had been doing it for over 25 years)about why this seemed to be occuring at such an alarming rate...his response was basically that "some of these companies have had famous names for too long and have been resting on their laurels while the Japanese and others have been getting their acts together, while others have had turn-overs in their heirarchy with founders either passing away or retiring or moving on. Either way, it seems most of the more famous American-made name-brands are having difficulties with quality control, either in models they have had around for some time, or in their design transitions to the world of solid state components from their previous tube components. With a few exceptions of a few particular models, you can still make a purchase of Harman/Kardon or McIntosh stuff without having to worry about its reliability, although Harman/Kardon has generally done better in their transition from tube stuff to solid state, so far, it seems. Both of these companies still have pride in workmanship, and they both pretty much still make great-sounding stuff, but you will pay alot more for the Macks...Oldsmobiles cost more than Chevys even if they have the same power train. One thing about Macks is that you generally can depend on their value staying with them over time!! They have been late in getting into solid state and it is showing in their teething problems, but their tube stuff is still well-worth its price!! Times are gettin hard out in the market and they are trying to get some solid state out there to grab a share of that lower-cost market now, but they may be cutting a few corners in their hurry to do it! Just give them some time, and they will likely end up grabbing a share of it, but those Japanese companies have been making much better stuff the last few years, and it is getting harder for the good old boys to keep up with them, when that Japanese stuff is priced to move!"

I can't remember the particular models, but McIntosh had a solid state receiver that was a total bust in quality(it was always being returned for different problems), and they also had one particular model that was tube in the tuner and solid state everywhere else that never really stayed out of the shop for long.

When I sat over a couple of beers with this service tech one evening, he asked me if I still planned to go quad. I told him I did. He then asked me whether I had been listening to any of the H/K stuff...and what I thought of it. I told him that I had been and it sounded great to me, but I had heard nothing but some of the stereo receivers and the citation combos and the receivers seemed to sound better to me. He suggested that I come by his apartment for a listen to his quad set-up.

I went by his place...planning to stay for an hour or so at the most...got there around 6 pm...left around 2 am!!! It looked like an electronics warehouse in one of his bedrooms...stuff stacked up everywhere along thre walls in shelves and racks, and a workbench and testing equipment over along one wall, with a couple Heresys upside down in the ceiling corners of the room over his work area!! He told me that he did repair in the evenings for the locals!

What did he have for his quad set-up? A modified (re-wired for better tranmission of CD-4 signal) Thorens TD 125 with a JVC 4MD-20X cartridge(he said: "I've tested all of them, so DON'T waste your money on the more expensive CD-4 cartridges out there, this one does everything any of THEM do, and more than MOST of them, and is middle of the road in price for a CD-4 cartridge...JVC doesn't actually make it, they just market it...it is hand-made and marketed by them and should cost over twice as much")running into H/K 900+ which he had modified with a pre-amp out, running into a couple of old MAC tube amps, pushing 4 Heresys, his dining room had another 4 Heresys and was being pushed by the amp section of the H/K 900+, itself!! He had other equipment tied into the H/K, but it was the vinyl we listened to.

I never saw such a large album collection of discrete/CD-4 stuff in my life, either!! Must have been over 400 of just them, not including all his other stuff in stereo!!

He would say "Let's listen to this in the living room, then go listen to it in the dining room" for each selection he played in CD-4...and we listened to just about everything imaginable, too!! We did alot of walking back and forth. He would continually ask me if I could hear any difference...and on occassion, I did, but he just chalked it up to room differences. He told me that the 900+ didn't have the "best tuner section in the world", but that it was alot better than the ones on the other quad units available, and it had about the best CD-4 demodulator in the business inside of it, and "anything you play through its tape inputs or auxillary inputs" would hold its own against anything else out there. The phono stages "could do with a bit better tweaking to have the best hum & noise ratio, but the stated -75 dB is MUCH better than almost anything else out there today"...and "I've never tested one of these that didn't EXCEED that spec in reality!!" "All in all, you can't go wrong with it for the price, since the closest thing to it is a pile of separate components that would cost you at least 5 times its price!!" "And if you throw four high quality capacitors into it at its pre-amp/amp junction and put on a pre-amp out module like I did to this one, you're all set to add some power amps when you want to do so." "If you want a better tuner you can always slap a nice tube unit into one of its auxillary inputs." "But, as good as this unit is, I would advise you on just one thing...DON'T run it all the time at really high volumes with the switch on the back thrown into the "stereo" mode...that straps the amplifiers and produces lots more heat because you are actually overworking the final stage amplifiers when you do this...they will be fine on something like what I have for speakers, but if your speakers require more power, then you could end up having to change out your amp pots every ten years or so if you crank it up in that mode all the time!! This unit was designed to be run in quad, NOT to be strapped continually into stereo mode, and it has more than adequate heat sinks for that, but it could use more airflow when it is strapped and cranked way up...it is really crowded inside that cabinet, almost looks like my bedroom/shop in there with all those boards stacked up everywhere.. and all that heat from strapping and running high volumes just can't get out of there fast enough...it will eventually cause other problems from the heat, too!! The wooden cabinet looks real nice, but it holds heat in and it really should have had a larger vent in the top of it so you can run it strapped all the time with no worries! Other than that warning, if you go for one of these babies, you should be happy for a very long time, few units are made this well, or sound this good!! There isn't a better quad unit out there, and not many stereo ones either!!"

I still think he was right about it not having any real peers in the quad receiver genre, and it out-performed most every stereo receiver I heard back then, too!

As for his comments on longetivity, here is what was replaced/repaired in it at the end of its first 16 years...and it got abused at times in a strapped mode, too!!:

"Cleaned switches and pots, replaced 8 wrong transistors in power amp and tone amp as per factory warranty model lit dtd 1978 with stated replacement units (no charge, should have been done in 1978 under warranty), replaced cap in tone amp, unit adjusted and tested. Unit met or exceeded all manufacturer's specs in testing(see enclosed test sheets).

NOTE: Unit needs to be monitored for light functions, three new bulbs installed, these are stated replacement units in cross/listing, but original bulb manufacturer no longer has these in inventory. Take care not to break new seal of red dots on CD-4 separation left and right controls on rear, if so, return for re-adjustment. Stereo light on tuner weak, but functional, not replaced as per customer request."

Cost was just $38.00!

------------------

I can now receive private messages

[djk]

Sorry to confuse you HDBR, the gist of my statement was that the 330C was in no way, shape, or form, inferior to the 430. And that the totally different 730 was step up. And that in a 45W receiver the Tandberg smoked everything. I have a 430, in the garage. I also have a 730, in the house. I think the main reason the Tandberg sounded better is it used better capacitors. I mentioned the CR800 because Kelly had one, and the phono section is quieter than the HKs of that vintage (the HKs had terrible noise rejection in their low level power supplies).

[HDBRbuilder]

DJK,

I don't know exactly when the "C" model of the 330 came out, all I ever experienced in that model was the 330 and 330B. The 430, which came onboard in mid 1975 for the 1976 model year was a big improvement over the 330B, which had been around for a very few years. The 930 and 630 were also dropped from the line about the same time that the 430 and 730 came onboard. The 230, as you said, was never really in the same class as ANY of the rest of the X30 series.

H/K later made serious improvement in their phono stages...partly due to the movement from MM to MC cartridges, I'm sure! In 1976, they didn't even offer up a MC-type phono stage. What I found strange was how much better the phono stages in their quad receivers were compared to their stereo line. I would venture to guess this was due to them needing that for CD-4 records.

I haven't run the phono through this 430 yet. I only gave its controls a good cleaning and then hooked up a CD player to its aux, hooked it up to my Heresys, and gave it a listen to see how it worked...and it performed EXTREMELY well. I really DON'T EXPECT its phono section to perform as well as the one on the 900+!!...even the given specs for the two show the 900+ to have the much better phono stage of the two!! Big difference between -65dB and -75dB in those days for hum&noise specs!!

I ran through it again yesterday, cleaned up its amp section(mostly just a few dust bunnies there)...it has one light burnt out behind its faceplate...gotta replace that, removed the fuses inside it, cleaned up their contacts and replaced them...same for fuses on rear...removed some traces of CANDLE WAX DROPS that had made their way INTO IT and were scattered about a small area near one of the power transformers(When will folks realize that stereo equipment is NOT a candle or plant stand!!!), etc.

I have already given the 800+ I recently aquired a general "run-through" and it is functioning fine. I may give its controls another cleaning though...it doesn't seem to have the same punch to its bass that the 430 has, even though they have the same power rating...could be that the controls are still a bit gummy inside! I have found that SOMETIMES expected bass response appears once the controls are given a THOROUGH cleaning, and that the highs are clearer with more definition. The 800's highs seem just fine, though!

I am also well aware that there can be major performance differences between INDIVIDUAL units from this era...I will be better able to evaluate that once the others arrive here.

The H/K models used mostly Japanese-made circuit components during that era. The Tandbergs still used MOSTLY European-made circuitry components during that era...and that could well be the reason for their higher asking price and performance. European-made circuitry components were pretty damned good in those days.

We had Tandberg stuff available to us for purchase, but the tape decks didn't hold up as well as the TEACs and Revox's...and that point probably kept their receivers from doing well in the market there on the bases. I never got to hear one except at the audio club...and they only had a couple of em...neither of which was the model you mentioned....maybe it came along a few years later.

We had the TR-1055, TR-1040, and TR-2075 to audition...they were VERY expensive, and many people shied away from them because they had "too many buttons and switches"...the attitude then still being that the more buttons it had, the more could go wrong with it!!...same reason that the JVC receivers (with their built-in equalizers and such)never did that well in sales!!

As for speakers we could audition, you can pretty much name it from that era and it was around!! Lots of JBL's though...they sold very well...and the BOSE 901's did well(I never liked them, though)...Klipsch sold well, but Belles and k-horns were special order, though...as were most of the Tannoys. AR models did well, too! We even had some buddies with LESLIES!!!! LOL! It was amazing to see the "squad bays" in barracks filled with over 30,000 bucks worth of stuff from just 6-8 soldiers, and that was even after the big-time discounts!! It wasn't very hard to get a chance to listen to almost any combination you wanted to hear!!

------------------

I can now receive private messages

[handig]

Hey, I know this was an old thread but I am curious about this PM 665. Anyone familiar with this amp

Did you say this has dual power supply like the 430? Is the sound similiar to 430?

I have a HK reciever(AVR 325, front's are KLF 20's) and the 2 channel sound is lacking.

Thanks