Guy Landau Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Hi folks, Simpler is much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Guy, I'm not an expert but it looks like u took a stock crossover and upgraded the inductor and capacitors. I thought about doing this too. I decided to build the Alk crossovers instead because when you change the inductor's resistance you change the DC resistance of the design and this changes the frequency response of the crossover. I figured that Al's design is proven and I've only read one post that his crossovers weren't liked while I read 100 posts of people who liked them, ALOT!! If u change the resistance on the inductor I think you need to pad the caps for the tweeter and squawker. The real test is how it sounds. Please let us know? ------------------ My Klipsch Page www.nyonline.com/klipsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 Trader, The type A is a 6db octave crossover.It was used in the 60's khorns and was changed to a 18db octave with tweeter protection(type AA) when hgh power solid state amplfication became popular.It is very simple to build and it sounds much better to my ears than my original type AA.I run a low power Marantz tube monoblocks and don't need to worry about damaging the tweeters. As you can see,I have used the best parts:Solen 10awg Litz inductor,multicap and hovland capacitors and the T2 transformer from my AA crossover. The sound is awsom and you can read more about my impressions in the topic:1st order crossover vs ALK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregorius Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Guy, Do you have a schematic or a parts list available? Thanks, Greg ------------------ HK AVR20 II Toshiba DVD 32" Toshiba TV Odyssey Stratos 1976 LaScala's Front L&R KV-1 Center KG 1.5 Rear L&R KSW-12 Sub Two-Channel Fisher 800C Receiver 1976 Klipsch LaScala's Teac CDP Pioneer TT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 30, 2002 Author Share Posted July 30, 2002 Gregorius, Here's the schematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 It's not showing up... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 I basically have your crossover but it is called a 1rd and is from a 1965 K-horn. It has one 2.4 mh inductor and two capacitors. a 12 and 2mf and a 2mf for the wteeter. It sounds good but I'm always looking for a tweak and they are 27 years old. Perhaps someone with technical knowledge could explain what Al is trying to do with his design and how it differs from your crossover in technical terms and in real world terms (how it might sound different). I'd love to know the crossover points in the ALk's and slopes vs. your crossover? I also don't care about tweeter protection because I don't blare my music. ------------------ My Klipsch Page www.nyonline.com/klipsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 Hi Guys, My network crosses at 400 and 6000 Hz. The "A" network crosses over about the same place except the slopes are much slower on the "A" squawker / tweeter transition. Mine is 6 dB / octave on the woofer to squawker. 12 dB / octave on the squawker and 18 dB / octave on the tweeter. Since the the K55 squawker poops out fast above 6000 Hz, that is like having 18 dB / octave on both. The big difference is that mine has the extra parts to make it present a constant impedance load to the amp. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 It's interesting that everything that I have read says that 1st order crossovers are not that good because there is a huge overlap between frequencies for each driver. I do know that I have a 1st order crossover in my K-horn (very old) and a second order in my other K-horn and I like the 2nd order sound better. However, this is not a fair test because I could have a bad network in one speaker or driver and not know it. And the driver lenses are different so that could change things too. Check out this great link on 1st and 2nd order networks. It explains things clearly: http://www.colomar.com/Shavano/crossover12db.html ------------------ My Klipsch Page www.nyonline.com/klipsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 31, 2002 Author Share Posted July 31, 2002 Paul Klipsch prefered the 1st order crossover as Bruce Edgar.I do prefer them to the type AA and to the ALK's since my amp has no trouble driving the type A and the sound is much bigger with more focus and detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 It is interesting that PWK wrote that the bass inductor can be removed or shorted out and "it is worth a couple of dB in the 250 to 350 Hz range." They do that at the factory showroom, he said in a Dope from Hope about bi- or poly- amping with electronic crossovers. I think he was talking about a A type crossover, but I should check what was in production at the time he wrote. The interesting part is that with the inductor removed, in the A type crossover circuit, we have a crossover with only three components: the two caps and the auto transformer. Wow, talk about keeping things simple. There are technical reasons to like a 6 dB roll off in the bass and a 6 dB roll on in the mid. In theory, IF the drivers are working flat, that arrangement allows the crossover outputs, and then the speaker outputs, to sum to flat. You'd think that any circuits which put the bass and mid at half power at the cross over point would add to flat, but not so. There are phase issues. But the simple circuit has fewer of them. A problem with the above theory is that the K-Horn drivers are not flat in output in the octaves above and below the crossover point. The output is dropping and rising very quickly. So we're not getting the theoretical response because outputs of the drivers when connected to the crossover network are not rolling off and on at 6 dB per octave. The same is true at the mid to tweeter "intersection". In my near copies, the mid horn output goes up to 5000 or 6000 Hz and then drops like a stone. A T-35, admittedly has some good output from 3500 up to 6000 Hz. If you take a close look at the A or AA, the mid circuit is not a passband design, only a high pass. So half of what would be a 6 dB additive circuit (i.e. the mid at the upper end) is not there at all. That is not to say there is anything poor about the set up. And indeed the speaker outputs may add well. It is just that the traditional explanation about a 6 dB slope can't be taken as totally accurate. Gil This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-31-2002 at 05:17 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Guy, Your ears are the end all. We all hear things different. If we didn't all speakers would be designed the same with the samde drivers and all you would pay for is a different cabinet. I wish you were local because I would love to hear the comparision. There are also many facotrs, amp, preamp, CD player, etc. That may make one crossover sound better than the other. That is not to say that in any combination the 1st order may be the best design. Or perhpas Al's crossovers are the end all. We will never know. Right now the consensus is that Al's crossovers are the best crossover. Q-man put Al's crossovers to the test and it was night and day for most of the crossovers he tested. He did say that the newer crossovers from Klipsch were very similar and not worth upgrading. He didn't use the Type A or a re-done Type A for comparison. ------------------ My Klipsch Page www.nyonline.com/klipsch This message has been edited by trader on 07-31-2002 at 09:14 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 31, 2002 Author Share Posted July 31, 2002 Trader, I am not saying that Al's crossovers are not good.I have lived with Al's crossovers for more than 2 years and they are indeed very good and much better than the stock AA's.I am not under estimating Q-man's audition but I guess that my system is more revealing than his.I would like to add that I can enjoy listening to my system at even lower level than before and was surprised to hear much greater detail at all frequencies from the lower bass till the higher highs including an amazing and natural midrange,which means that less information is lost on the way. If anyone of you guys are planning to visit Israel in the future(even though it's not the greatest time),you are welcome to come and visit and have a listen and do all the comparisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Hi Guy! Have you tried without the inductor in the bass? I have ordered some Audio Note c/o caps for the tweet and mid,and a Alphacore inductor for the bass.I'm looking forward to hearing it! Thanks, Rune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 31, 2002 Author Share Posted July 31, 2002 Hi Rune! I have'nt tried to remove the woofer inductor yet. I have heared that the Solen inductors are more suitable than the Alphacore but it might be just a rumor. I have let the inductor burn in for 2 weeks in my ALK crossover it began to sound good after 15 hours of playing.Please take into consideration that capacitors need even more time. It would be intersting to compare the Audio note's to the Hovlands/Multicaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InventiveAudio.com Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 Al wrote (talking about crossover slope): Mine is 6 dB / octave on the woofer to squawker. 12 dB / octave on the squawker and 18 dB / octave on the tweeter. I'm still learning so bare with me. From my readings a 1st order crossover slope is 6 db and a second order is 12 db. Also, most higher end crossovers use second order because there is less of an overlap between the frequencies that each driver must produce. Al's crossover slope is 6 db, 12 db and 18 db. Does this mean his design would be considered a hybrid? Is the original type A a true 1st order? ------------------ My Klipsch Page www.nyonline.com/klipsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 1, 2002 Author Share Posted August 1, 2002 Trader, The original type A is indeed a true 1st order crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rune Posted August 3, 2002 Share Posted August 3, 2002 Guy, I just read some old discussions,and I saw you were buying some Altec mid horn and driver.Do you still use them?Which sounds more natural? Rune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted August 4, 2002 Author Share Posted August 4, 2002 Rune, I have few pairs of 311-90,a pair of 311-60 and 803b multicell. I couldn't find a decent driver like the 288 here and experimented with the 290E which was normally used for paging and has more limited frequency than the K55v. I did'nt feel that it was an improvement and I am about to try the K55v with the 311-90 in the near future. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted August 4, 2002 Share Posted August 4, 2002 I have some 288 drivers with 805B horns. The combo is better sounding then the K-55/400. The 288 and 805B is designed for a two way, but it needs a tweeter. I pull it out of the closet every now and then when I compare stuff. Q. ------------------ Q-Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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