skaloumbakas Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 ...If the flavoring is euphonic - as in merely softens, sweetens or otherwise improves the sound in the individual listener's ears then this is not boring...QUOTE] Max, do you think there is a system in the whole world that improves every recording? God, recording engineers will be very happy with this descovery cause they'll have to do nothing... Hi-End systems should make you distinct different versions of the same Symphony for example, and give you the ability to decide about good or bad recordings, good or bad orchestrations, different flavors of Pianos or violins etc. This is what is all about. Flavors of the music and not flavors of your system. This message has been edited by skaloumbakas on 08-30-2002 at 07:32 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 "Max, do you think there is a system in the whole world that improves every recording?" Conversely do you think that there is a system that will play every piece of music and every type of music better than any other? I would say that a given system can improve the playback of one or more given genres of music (to the ears of the specific listener) and that these may well coincide with that persons individual taste in music. In other words my own system may be completely dreadful at playing back house music / hip-hop / jazz-funk etc. etc. but that it is of little importance to me as I never listen to it. "God, recording engineers will be very happy with this descovery cause they'll have to do nothing..." I wasnt aware of God's active role in the music industry - is he in production or post production. As for the recording engineers - as you well know - many of them produce material that is a disgrace and it is all too rare to find a properly recorded piece of music. "Hi-End systems should make you distinct different versions of the same Symphony for example, and give you the ability to decide about good or bad recordings, good or bad orchestrations, different flavors of Pianos or violins etc. This is what is all about." Agreed - how does this affect euphonics? A Euphonic system may add flavour to the music but that does not mean it REPLACES the existing flavours. My system is euphonic but I can still distinguish between different recordings of the same piece of music. "Flavors of the music and not flavors of your system." Or, both... Just out of interest is there anyone in the world that claims their system adds no flavour to the music it plays back? Are we now merely arguing about degree? If so, I like my chips with a little salt and ketchup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by maxg: When reproducing the live event it is important (for some audiophiles) that the reproduction match as closely as possible the original performance. If you like - we are diferentiating between the values of production and reproduction. In other words we are defining neutral as the ability to play back the original performance (with all of its flavour and colour) exactly as it was - with no added gain or loss due to the reproduction. And this is, exactly, what is impossible, even by definition. True, it is "the holly gray" and what is wanted, but most tend to forget that there is no way to know how the original performance sounded. The maximum goal would be then to reproduce the recorded session. But then again, we have not way to know how the original recording sounds. So, we are left to believe that our particular gear will play it as accurated as possible. We are left with just faith on the manufacturer we trust the better. The only way to listen to the original recording the way the engineer wanted is to go to the original studio and listen the master there. And even there, we will be far from hearing the original performance. This message has been edited by Manuel on 08-30-2002 at 09:07 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 quote: Originally posted by skaloumbakas: Hi-End systems should make you distinct different versions of the same Symphony for example, and give you the ability to decide about good or bad recordings, good or bad orchestrations, different flavors of Pianos or violins etc. This is what is all about. Im not sure Im following, but I would say that this will happen no matter your system. Someone can have some Avantgarde's, some will have Wilson Audio's, some will have Kharma's or whatever brand and all they will listen different things. Even assuming all have dedicated and treated rooms. So, some recordings will sound better in some equipment and some others better in other, there are a LOT of factors involved here, even if we left out the predominant one: subjectivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 I think we all agree by disagreeing... We are not talking absolute terms here but we are dealing with everybody's preferences TAWARDS neutrality or colourless. Who disagrees in this post that our goal is to make our system disappear when it plays, sorry, reproduces musical events, (especially music recorded live). Systems are a bunch of transistors, valves, wires, cones, membranes, horns etc. most of them ugly looking, which our wives wish them to disappear physically and we want them to disappear mentally (acoustically) and leave in their place musical instruments, Choruses, Female voices etc. Systems are not musical instruments but signal reproducers and the more accurate they are the better. Systems cannot be described as musical or euphonic. Musical instruments can be described as such. I agree that in a Studio you have no idea how the real think was produced (I don't care anyway...) but live recordings are more realistic in getting the feeling. There you have, people from the audience breathing, coughing and clapping their hands, and the full Orchestra with so many levels of depth and height and width. The more neutral your system is (I never said there is total absence of flavour in any system - room combination) the more you have the feeling of being there, especially if you are a frequent concert goer. If somebody is fallen in love with his Hi-Fi, he is seriously mistaken. _______________________________________________________ quote: I wasnt aware of God's active role in the music industry - is he in production or post production. Max, I will propose to you to post in Greek and I am sure I will find to your text many misspellings or bad syntaxes. I suppose you realized what I was meaning with my phrase which is: "Recording engineers will be very happy with this discovery because they'll have to do nothing, for Gods shake!" Is it clear now Max? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 OK you two... could there be a falling out in the Audiophile Club of Athens? We don't always have to agree with one another but let's not act like 6 year olds either... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 I thought they were debating fine, Mike. A little bit of pointed language isnt so bad. I find it adds a bit of spice, especially if witty. If only they WERE witty! heh... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Witty, witty, witty... I am trying to find it in the dictionary if it's good or bad ... anyway. ... Until I find it, I will give a link to a Hi-End Profile of a good friend here (I won't tell you who is he but he gave me great honour...): http://aca.gr/pop_long.htm Cheers Christos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Hmmm... Well, he seems vaguely familiar to me, although I cant quite place him. What strange equipment! He obviously contracted some twisted form of disease while overseas in the Air Force; how else can one explain that collection of equipment? Poor bastard. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Very nice page for Edmond there, Christos. I'm jealous of his equipment as well. Mike This message has been edited by Mike Lindsey on 08-30-2002 at 04:39 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 30, 2002 Author Share Posted August 30, 2002 I find "neutral" speakers to often sound boring and with little life. Maybe it's because I'm used to klipsch, but I think it's just because they try to hard to get a completely neutral speaker, it ends up sounding weak. ------------------ New music system: 2.1 using SF-2's (soon to be RF-7's), and an RSW-15. for amplification Mcintosh MC02105, Sony SACD player. pioneer turntable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prana-Bindu Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 prodj101: Please don't take offense to what I'm gonna say, because I've been where I think you are, and all this sh*t is mostly a matter of taste anyway. I believe your age has a lot to do with your expressed preference for the Klipsch sound and disdain for the "neutral" sound. That's right: I looked at your profile, and it mentions you're a teenager. When I was a teenager, I would turn up the treble constantly. I enjoyed the bright crash of cymbals and the edginess of rock music. I was a teenager when I first heard Klipsch, and its bright sound spoke volumes to me, because it was bright but not piercingly annoying (like what you get when you just turn up the treble on most such systems). I also enjoyed that forward soundstage and ultra-dynamic response. Now that I'm older and softer, my tastes have taken me the way of the "neutral". Again, its a matter of taste, and I think your tastes make sense and cohere well with what Klipsch has to offer. Or, maybe I'm wrong and you enjoy listening to Diana Krall, chamber music and well-produced blues while sipping on some chardonay in a smoking jacket.... ------------------ May the bridges we burn light our way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Prodj101 and Prana-Bindu I think the question is not yet resolved, yet you both continue to speak as if you know exactly what are you talking about. What is a neutral speaker? The one that the manufacturer says it is neutral? The one that is considered like that by the audiophile community? or perhaps the one that you both consider to be "neutral"? Furthermore, neutral in respect to what? other speakers? Where is the table when one can compare speakers to see if they color the sound (or whatever is needed to appart them from "neutral")? Does the price or technology involved makes them more neutral than others? Again, based on what? on the manufacturers process? on the materials? shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Now, that's what I call a post to think about! This message has been edited by Manuel on 08-30-2002 at 11:07 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 If anyone's speakers are experiencing the a case of the young "Krall's"(Diana), may I suggest you sample some "Horn's"(Shirley). Shirley is what Diana can only hope she'll develop into. A few "Horn" recommendations;(unfortunately CD only) Shirley Horn, "I Remember Miles" Shirley Horn, "You Won't Forget Me" Shirley Horn,with Strings, "Here's to Life" Christos, Thanks for the honor of the web page! I'm truly humbled. Much inspiration was obtained by viewing systems on your ACA site and posts by you and Max. Mike, You of all people know all the equipment did not appear by magic. I just knew I wanted a compelling sounding 2 channel system. You've got the LaScala's now so keep moving onward. Mobile, Thanks again for your many posts and recommendations which helped make that page possible. Did I mention how much I like the Aries Scout TT? Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 Jas, Here is your post... "ear... i'm filled with the desire to smack you so hard your face falls off. i have been to many live concerts of orchestras. many different conductors. many different musicians. many different concert halls. not ONE sounds the same. the conductors tweak the music... color it if you will... the musicians change it... color it if you will... the concert halls acoustics will mod the sound... or shall i say color it. many people prefer the different sounds of different preformances. my point is... if they all sounded "neutral," without different accents or emphasis... it'd be rather boring now wouldn't it? i want a speaker that will do for me what a good conductor will. put life into the music. make it sound special and throw in his own flavor to it. not just "reproduce it" whats the fun in that?" If you want to smack me just try,your not the first so get in line. Speakers are here to reproduce with as much faith what the recording contains.Not more and not less.If you like some colorations,fine its your choice.Cant argue taste. This said the speakers let the musicians and conductors and recordings give the colors,not adding or substracting some more.This way you can really get into the recording.Music is all about colors,let the music pass thru,and not the speaker sound interfere. And as you can see I am not alone(far from it)to think this way. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 quote: This said the speakers let the musicians and conductors and recordings give the colors,not adding or substracting some more.This way you can really get into the recording.Music is all about colors,let the music pass thru,and not the speaker sound interfere. That's exactly what I meant. But then, teenagers (and some older ones...) want to have excessive colour in their live, well... May be I was there too some 30 years ago but we all come this way after we mature eventually. This message has been edited by skaloumbakas on 08-31-2002 at 04:26 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 Oh you guys do make me chuckle. Maturity now reduces the flavouring required in a system. The older you are - the more you want a good clean sound and a disappearing system. The high ground now moves towards those demanding sonic accuracy, those with maturity, whilst the juniors play with there lemon flavoured systems and strawberry whips. I knew of a young chap who just might have disagreed with you, from memory his name was Paul and he built speakers, large heavily flavoured speakers at that, last I heard he still kinda liked the Horn sound before he passed on. Still he was only 92. (BTW - Christos - I was only teasing you with the God line) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 skaloumbakas, Some will never learn,dont try to help them.Mob rules,when the mob takes arms just send a few choppers with GE miniguns and mow them down. LOL A bit off topic now Talking about a throw down and mow down I just finished viewing Black Hawk Down.Damn each time I see the movie I feel sorry for the poor soldiers without proper air support.I pitty the fools who get mowed down by the hundreds.Ah yes great movie,this week all I see is war movies Peace LOL my Klipsch speakers are soaked in blood from my poor ears TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.