Phono Amp Recommendations

[TubeHiFiNut]

@ATLAudio - Wow......you really take this stuff seriously. 

 

Again, let me make myself clear: If someone asks a question, I will offer my opinion. You do the same. When we are dealing with matters of individual perception, both are just that - OPINIONS.

 

Your behavior is exactly what I referenced in my previous post - to you, there is only one true way to practice our hobby and everyone else is wrong. Thank you for proving my point.

 

Tell you what.....you go ahead and crusade to your hearts content and I'll relax and enjoy my obviously flawed and inadequate system.

 

For now, I hope that @jkull has enough information to make the best decision for his system.

 

As always, YMMV.....

[ATLAudio]

9 hours ago, jkull said:

I had originally purchased the 7701 for HT and 2 channel use. Now that I am focused toward 2 channel, I figure I should remove a source like this as it has a ton of video components etc within, that I am not utilizing. I am planning to use the preamp of the 219 instead.  It's just a large AV component as the 7701 seems a bit unfitting in a 2 channel designated setup.

 

 

That being the case, I'd look at the Pro-Ject phono stage, $100 out the door.

 

If I was to go ALL OUT, NAD makes one with a USB out for recording and a gain knob for adjustments if you want to adjust the line level for longer cable lengths, and or to level match to other sources, like a CD Player. 

 

If you did use your AVR for 2 channel, you wouldn't be the first one I know. I got a bud who uses a NAD T777 for just this purpose. I like that you get an active crossover for bass management to a subwoofer; something that too many pre/integrates don't provide. 

[ATLAudio]

3 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

@ATLAudio - Wow......you really take this stuff seriously. 

 

Again, let me make myself clear: If someone asks a question, I will offer my opinion. You do the same. When we are dealing with matters of individual perception, both are just that - OPINIONS.

 

Your behavior is exactly what I referenced in my previous post - to you, there is only one true way to practice our hobby and everyone else is wrong. Thank you for proving my point.

 

Tell you what.....you go ahead and crusade to your hearts content and I'll relax and enjoy my obviously flawed and inadequate system.

 

For now, I hope that @jkull has enough information to make the best decision for his system.

 

As always, YMMV.....

 

You still can't answer a single question of mine because you've never asked questions to yourself. You clearly have no idea why it's absolutely necessary to buy a $1000 phono stage because you're so divorced from critical thinking. That's all I'm seeing here. This isn't about my way or the highway, it's that your way has logical pitfalls which I've pointed out, and you can't defend since you never questioned them. 

[minermark]

On 11/26/2016 at 11:20 AM, jkull said:

I have another recent thread regarding my recent purchase of a pair of 1980 horizontal cornwalls. I have a Line Magnetic 219ia on the way which should be arriving monday. Now what I need is to locate/select a good MM phono amp, as I was using the phono in my marantz 7701 which I will no longer be using in this setup.

 

So my chain will be:

 

Line Magnetic 219ia Integrated SET Amp (utilizing the preamp as well)

Cornwalls

Audioquest speaker from amp to speakers

VPI Classic 2 TT w/ Soundsmith Zephyr 2 High Output Moving Iron Cartridge (MM)

3FT Blue Jeans RCA's from TT to phono, and have a pair of audio quest meter length RCA's to run from the phono to the amp

 

So I am looking for recommendations. I suppose I am open to SS or valve, but I think Id like to try a valve phono.

I want a decent phono, but I do not need a diminishing gain, soaked in snake oil phono.  Id like to keep the budget under 1k.  

The DECWARE ZP3 tube phono looks nice. SET, no feedback, $1295 with 10% off right now. So its at the top of what id be looking

to spend... Looking at around an 8 week wait right now, which I could 'live' with.  However, 

there may be better options for the money and I could use this forums generous guidance and advice. Thank you!

 

I have a bud in SoCal that tunes/adds/replaces parts of his two channel every couple years.

20+ years ago he really took up an interest in vynil, i was there one day wile he was opening up box's from New Zealand, turned out it was some of "The" cleanest SS audio iv ever heard.

This company has quite a following in the eastern block country's.

 

http://www.perreaux.com/

 

 

[jkull]

3 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

 

That being the case, I'd look at the Pro-Ject phono stage, $100 out the door.

 

If I was to go ALL OUT, NAD makes one with a USB out for recording and a gain knob for adjustments if you want to adjust the line level for longer cable lengths, and or to level match to other sources, like a CD Player. 

 

If you did use your AVR for 2 channel, you wouldn't be the first one I know. I got a bud who uses a NAD T777 for just this purpose. I like that you get an active crossover for bass management to a subwoofer; something that too many pre/integrates don't provide. 

Okay now that you mention this, I'm going to go ahead and ask a rather basic and probably silly question...  I am used to utilizing the sub out on my marantz pre currently. With the 219ia, what is my route for sub integration? Being their is not a designated subwoofer 'out', am I just running from one of the inputs on the back of the amp into the sub?  This is probably self explanatory but I admit I don't know the answer.  I have a SVS PB13 ultra. I suppose i just set the active crossover on the sub and let that be the crossover control, as opposed to have the marantz dictate the crossover. ?   Thanks

[TubeHiFiNut]

4 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

You still can't answer a single question of mine because you've never asked questions to yourself. You clearly have no idea why it's absolutely necessary to buy a $1000 phono stage because you're so divorced from critical thinking. That's all I'm seeing here. This isn't about my way or the highway, it's that your way has logical pitfalls which I've pointed out, and you can't defend since you never questioned them. 

Don't you ever take the liberty of telling me what I do and do not think.

 

You do not have the right or the privilege to do so and I will not allow it.

 

I have attempted to converse with you in a civil manner but that's not really what you want, is it?

 

For your information, I have tried numerous solid state and tube phono stages, line stages, preamps, etc. in a wide variety of price ranges. I do not care what something costs, only how it sounds. Accordingly, I commented on three phono preamps that I either own or have owned in the price range the OP specified. It doesn't bother me in the least if @jkull elects to audition any or none of the phono stages I listed, buys a $100 solid state device or uses his current AVR receiver - as long as he is satisfied with the result then it is the right decision for him.

 

It might also interest you to know that we probably agree on wire and cable - mine is rather pedestrian and I find that inexpensive but well constructed cable usually sounds better than mega-buck really complex stuff. Found that out all by myself by LISTENING.

 

Bottom line from my perspective: You do not appear to be interested in having a conversation with anyone who does not subscribe to your way of approaching our hobby. If one is not an ABX acolyte and declines to subscribe to Aczel's 10 biggest lies in audio then their OPINIONS must be trashed and dismissed because your way is the only true way.

 

This conversation is over. 

 

My apologies to the Mods and to @jkull for allowing myself to be drawn into this off-topic debate. Now to find the "ignore" feature and invoke it.

[ATLAudio]

1 hour ago, jkull said:

Okay now that you mention this, I'm going to go ahead and ask a rather basic and probably silly question...  I am used to utilizing the sub out on my marantz pre currently. With the 219ia, what is my route for sub integration? Being their is not a designated subwoofer 'out', am I just running from one of the inputs on the back of the amp into the sub?  This is probably self explanatory but I admit I don't know the answer.  I have a SVS PB13 ultra. I suppose i just set the active crossover on the sub and let that be the crossover control, as opposed to have the marantz dictate the crossover. ?   Thanks

There should be line out LR which you'd go to line to the SVS sub. You'll want to adjust your SVS crossover so you don't get muddy double bass. Doing so will likely see you crossing at 60hz or lower which isn't using that sub to its fullest extent, but it will work. But like I said, the advantage the marantz has is an active crossover built in which changes the roll off for the speakers AND the sub.

 

Does the Marantz have line outs? If so, instead of buying that company's integrate you could get their power amp, and use the Marantz as a preamp. 

[jkull]

30 minutes ago, ATLAudio said:

There should be line out LR which you'd go to line to the SVS sub. You'll want to adjust your SVS crossover so you don't get muddy double bass. Doing so will likely see you crossing at 60hz or lower which isn't using that sub to its fullest extent, but it will work. But like I said, the advantage the marantz has is an active crossover built in which changes the roll off for the speakers AND the sub.

 

Does the Marantz have line outs? If so, instead of buying that company's integrate you could get their power amp, and use the Marantz as a preamp. 

Oh alright gotcha.  The marantz has line outs yes. I was running balanced XLR out of the marantz to the SVS currently. The 219ia amplifier is built in a TRUE dual mono block design.  You can used the 219ia's built in pre amp, or run a different pre amp, and bypass the 219ia's pre.  I will of course compare the 219 pre to the marantz pre. The 219's pre runs 12Ax7's. I will likely use the pre in the 219. 

[jkull]

2 minutes ago, jkull said:

Oh alright gotcha.  The marantz has line outs yes. I was running balanced XLR out of the marantz to the SVS currently. The 219ia amplifier is built in a TRUE dual mono block design.  You can used the 219ia's built in pre amp, or run a different pre amp, and bypass the 219ia's pre.  I will of course compare the 219 pre to the marantz pre. The 219's pre runs 12Ax7's. I will likely use the pre in the 219.  I only wish to utilize the sub at below 40Hz as I prefer the my mains to handle the majority of the bass.  

 

[ATLAudio]

10 minutes ago, jkull said:

Oh alright gotcha.  The marantz has line outs yes. I was running balanced XLR out of the marantz to the SVS currently. The 219ia amplifier is built in a TRUE dual mono block design.  You can used the 219ia's built in pre amp, or run a different pre amp, and bypass the 219ia's pre.  I will of course compare the 219 pre to the marantz pre. The 219's pre runs 12Ax7's. I will likely use the pre in the 219. 

 

Yes, if it's a dual mono design, that'll work great! Make sure you level match before you test. 

 

Why do you want your speakers to handle bass above 40hz? Rooms behave in such a way that the best place for your towers almost always isn't the best place for bass as high as 80-100 or even 120 hz. A lot of research has been done on this and the leading target is around 80hz, which is why you hear so much being said about it. That's a very well designed sub as well with very good control. Another thing you lose with a cross that low is the ability to shelf your bass dynamics. Blind listening tests have found that most listeners, self-described audiophiles, and casual listeners alike, prefer bass below 100 hz up to 10 dB louder than the rest of the sound. Having a sub crossed over at around 80-100 hz gives you more control here. 

[ATLAudio]

1 hour ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Don't you ever take the liberty of telling me what I do and do not think.

 

You do not have the right or the privilege to do so and I will not allow it.

 

I have attempted to converse with you in a civil manner but that's not really what you want, is it?

 

For your information, I have tried numerous solid state and tube phono stages, line stages, preamps, etc. in a wide variety of price ranges. I do not care what something costs, only how it sounds. Accordingly, I commented on three phono preamps that I either own or have owned in the price range the OP specified. It doesn't bother me in the least if @jkull elects to audition any or none of the phono stages I listed, buys a $100 solid state device or uses his current AVR receiver - as long as he is satisfied with the result then it is the right decision for him.

 

It might also interest you to know that we probably agree on wire and cable - mine is rather pedestrian and I find that inexpensive but well constructed cable usually sounds better than mega-buck really complex stuff. Found that out all by myself by LISTENING.

 

Bottom line from my perspective: You do not appear to be interested in having a conversation with anyone who does not subscribe to your way of approaching our hobby. If one is not an ABX acolyte and declines to subscribe to Aczel's 10 biggest lies in audio then their OPINIONS must be trashed and dismissed because your way is the only true way.

 

This conversation is over. 

 

My apologies to the Mods and to @jkull for allowing myself to be drawn into this off-topic debate. Now to find the "ignore" feature and invoke it.

 

The fact that you've tried every phono stage ever made is irrelevant to my point. My Point is that you won't answer simple questions, that is when approached with exotic priced gear for something so simple as a phono stage, why is it necessary? What's the secret sauce? You don't approach it critically because you're singing their jingle, listen to your ears while your brain falls out. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE who insists on a $1k phono stage has NO IDEA about the science behind making one or they wouldn't buy it. I never gave the exotic wire the time of day because I bother to ask questions about the science. I appreciate science and the scientific method and things like ABX as incredibly power discovery tools which you reject without the slightest explanation, but further name calling. You then belittle those who support basic scientific approaches as "True Believers" or "Acolytes," trust me, this only makes me more comfortable in our disagreement. You have no answers, and based off what I've heard so far, I'm comfortable in assuming that it's because you haven't bothered to ask those questions in your long storied 40 year history of audio. 

[mkane]

   Jkull, while you wait for your Decware would you like to give my DIY project a spin. You pay shipping both ways. It will knock your socks off.

[TubeHiFiNut]

4 hours ago, mkane said:

   Jkull, while you wait for your Decware would you like to give my DIY project a spin. You pay shipping both ways. It will knock your socks off.

+1 to this suggestion. I do not have direct experience with this phono stage but there are a number of folks who I respect that have built this stage and enjoy the sound immensely.

 

[jkull]

15 hours ago, ATLAudio said:

Yes, if it's a dual mono design, that'll work great! Make sure you level match before you test. 

 

Why do you want your speakers to handle bass above 40hz? Rooms behave in such a way that the best place for your towers almost always isn't the best place for bass as high as 80-100 or even 120 hz. A lot of research has been done on this and the leading target is around 80hz, which is why you hear so much being said about it. That's a very well designed sub as well with very good control. Another thing you lose with a cross that low is the ability to shelf your bass dynamics. Blind listening tests have found that most listeners, self-described audiophiles, and casual listeners alike, prefer bass below 100 hz up to 10 dB louder than the rest of the sound. Having a sub crossed over at around 80-100 hz gives you more control here. 

A healthy chunk of my listening is to heavy music. Crust/sludge/speedmetal/power violence etc etc. With music of this sort being a part of my everyday listening, I find that I like having the mains handle as much a portion of the bass as possible. With something like EDM, or hip hop, I would expect benefit in the sub covering a wider range for sure. This is what I find this far with experimentation with the cornwalls as I really love how they display the sound of an electric or acoustic bass. kind of get me here?

[jkull]

14 hours ago, mkane said:

   Jkull, while you wait for your Decware would you like to give my DIY project a spin. You pay shipping both ways. It will knock your socks off.

I don't know that I'd have the experience to do it?!!   I could maybe see if my guitar amp tech would build it....  what is the cost?  'Just' shipping?!  Thank you

[ATLAudio]

2 hours ago, jkull said:

A healthy chunk of my listening is to heavy music. Crust/sludge/speedmetal/power violence etc etc. With music of this sort being a part of my everyday listening, I find that I like having the mains handle as much a portion of the bass as possible. With something like EDM, or hip hop, I would expect benefit in the sub covering a wider range for sure. This is what I find this far with experimentation with the cornwalls as I really love how they display the sound of an electric or acoustic bass. kind of get me here?

 

I know exactly what you're talking about and correct me if I'm wrong, but is it that electric bass growl? Yes, smaller woofer drivers in speakers handle this better, but here's what I know. Open E (40hz), and A (70hz), the two larger strings, don't resonate growl quite as much as D, and G, so that's another reason why I never go higher than 80hz for my sub. With some tweaks, and adjustments I've used to get the best of both worlds.

 

Here are a few ideas to try if you haven't already.

Play with moving the Cornwall away from the wall, a foot or two, this will help with lower end harmonic resolution. 

Perform a sub crawl using music with your favorite bass riffs, and the speakers unplugged. Completely different music, but it works; I use Dire Straits "So Far Away" entry bass notes for this test. I'm trying to hear more musical bass from my subs, not just SPLs. Try and get the sub about a half foot or more away from boundaries too.  

Use Audyssey Dynamic EQ at -10, or -15 trim 

 

 

[mkane]

3 hours ago, jkull said:

I don't know that I'd have the experience to do it?!!   I could maybe see if my guitar amp tech would build it....  what is the cost?  'Just' shipping?!  Thank you

  Just shipping means you pay shipping and I send you my unit to see if it suits your tastes. And hell, I'll put one together for you for the cost of the parts along. You can also roll OP amps on this unit to tailor the sound. Cost for parts less than $150 sans power supply. Mine powered by 2 9v batteries which last 30+ hrs

 

 

 

  My enclosures are homemade and a bit backyard but there out of site. 

[jkull]

1 hour ago, ATLAudio said:

I know exactly what you're talking about and correct me if I'm wrong, but is it that electric bass growl? Yes, smaller woofer drivers in speakers handle this better, but here's what I know. Open E (40hz), and A (70hz), the two larger strings, don't resonate growl quite as much as D, and G, so that's another reason why I never go higher than 80hz for my sub. With some tweaks, and adjustments I've used to get the best of both worlds.

 

Here are a few ideas to try if you haven't already.

Play with moving the Cornwall away from the wall, a foot or two, this will help with lower end harmonic resolution. 

Perform a sub crawl using music with your favorite bass riffs, and the speakers unplugged. Completely different music, but it works; I use Dire Straits "So Far Away" entry bass notes for this test. I'm trying to hear more musical bass from my subs, not just SPLs. Try and get the sub about a half foot or more away from boundaries too.  

Use Audyssey Dynamic EQ at -10, or -15 trim 

 

 

Yes, the growl. Some supportive tonal bass characteristics that my 8" woofers in my B&W speakers just failed to produce, while the cornwalls on the other hand, do very well. A chunk of these tonal characteristics lie within that 40Hz - 100Hz range. I like this coming from my mains beneath the horn mid producing the guitars. It is a more balanced and satisfying reproduction for me.

 

i will try moving the cornwalls out from the wall though. I haven't done much experimenting yet as I sold my SS mono's over the weekend and am ampless until the 219ia arrives via DHL at some point today actually.

[mkane]

  Next build will be for a MC cartridge and wood is Black Walnut from our property. I failed to mention there are dip switches with 4 cartridge loading ortions.

 

[Schu]

The parks audio budgie has dip switches withdozens of loading options.... and if you dont know who shannon parks is