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Sub for Jubilee - Klipschorn


RSVRMAN
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As I await arrival of the Jubilees I'd like to hear input from Khorn owners as well since the lower cross points would be relatively the same. Most of this may be hypothetical, as I have yet to hear my Jubilees, however I have previously always had a sub-woofer and I just want to be ready with a decision in the event I get everything hooked up and notice I'm missing that 30hz and below. I may not feel the need for one at all, which would also be ok. 

 

To clarify I'm about 60% Music 40% Movies. With the music, I listen to about everything. The music that I feel that I listen to including a lot of orchestra, choir, organs, movie soundtracks do occasionally operate in that spectrum. I know for sure the movies I watch it will be missed. This is something that may not bother the wife and I can overlook until a later time, my concern is more for music.

 

I've been reading various threads and and many reviews, it seems that horn loaded is probably the best overall option given my current situation and that they blend seamlessly. Also cost, as JTR's are just too much. (I just bought Jubilees so I'm WAF limited) I know the technology has dramatically changed even within the past 5 years so I'm open to any and all suggestions.

 

We are currently renting our house and plan to build in a few years, at which point I'm certain I will be perusing something along the IB route to get to that 10 hz level. So while that is very intriguing, they are not an option currently.

 

Bumbling around the AVS forum as well as here, I put together a tentative list. So far it includes othorn, F-20, THT, Table Tuba, Danley DTS 10/20 (not sure if you can still get kit), Lab12, Krakken, Lilwrecker. I'm sure I'm missing some, but this is what seems to have the most builds or the most reviewed.

 

The room is 25x30, I have a few options for placement, but for now it will only be one subwoofer. Hopefully in the future I can build another. For now I still need to keep a little space since its our only open room. So size is a bit of a consideration.

My goal is for the subwoofer to be able to clearly hit the 16-17hz range. Lower even better.  

 

I'm currently leaning towards the Lilwrecker. Since its tapped, it's limited to a lower crossover point, however it does hit that 16/17hz. It also has a decent footprint and the cost seems to be just right. 

 

Thank you in advance,

 

 

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I think you're right on the horn side of things...  downside of that is it will be big.

 

Too bad you live so far away, I have my 2nd Danley (dts-10) up for sale since I had to make some compromises to keep the wifey happy.

 

 

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1 hour ago, RSVRMAN said:

...my concern is more for music.

Horn-loaded subwoofers are indicated with your Jubs then. 

 

Most people that like direct radiating woofers aren't interested in sound quality, rather just output. 

 

With music, you need to think about making subwoofers of the quality of your Jubilee bass quality--and that the subs are merely an extension of the Jub bass bins themselves--like another "way" of each bass bin--and their modulation distortion is similarly as low as the Jub bass bins.  That means "horn loaded".

 

1 hour ago, RSVRMAN said:

I just want to be ready with a decision in the event I get everything hooked up and notice I'm missing that 30hz and below. I may not feel the need for one at all, which would also be ok.

Once I became accustomed to the outstanding new sound of the Jubs, I missed the sub-30 Hz stuff...a lot.  For music and movies.

 

1 hour ago, RSVRMAN said:

The room is 25x30, I have a few options for placement, but for now it will only be one subwoofer. Hopefully in the future I can build another. For now I still need to keep a little space since its our only open room. So size is a bit of a consideration.

I'd recommend tapped horns if small size is important.

 

I've found the Geddes's suggestions on subwoofer placement works.  The first sub goes into a corner (for the improvement in the TH gain on the lowest end), the next goes close to a mid-wall position, the third can be anywhere else.  A video of Geddes talking about this subject:

 

 

I've got two TH subs--both with their mouths in corners of the room behind each Jub, but when I added the center K-402-MEH, it had extension below 30 Hz (EQed) that really filled the room and provided disproportionate increases in infrasonic bass performance at our listening positions.  I'm going to flip one of my DIY TH-SPUDs around so that its mouth is closer to mid-wall position (given that I have a  "round tuit" to spend on that...;)).

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:

f you are up to building, the little wrecker is a good pick.  There is plenty of help on the AVS forum if needed.

Been a long time member there, rarely post but avid reader. Lots of bassheads for sure. Is there any other horn thats more capable in that lower 16-17hz range and same footprint as the little wrecker?

1 hour ago, Chris A said:

Once I became accustomed to the outstanding new sound of the Jubs, I missed the sub-30 Hz stuff...a lot.  For music and movies.

 

I'd recommend tapped horns if small size is important.

This is what I'm afraid of, so best to have a decision if I need to pull the trigger I can do so relatively easy.

Since I've come to the tapped horns or rather horn loaded in the combination with jubes, with this comment I must be barking up the right tree :D

 

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17 minutes ago, jason str said:

Best bet=THT.

Proven workhorse and best fully horn loaded design.

Tapped horns will lead to higher distortion, just a downside to the design.

Minimal floor space wasted if you choose the THTLP.

I'm liking the THTLP. It seems very comparable to the little wrecker and can do 16hz. Slightly longer but less wide and deep. I'm assuming the specs for the THT and THTLP are near identical?

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12 minutes ago, jason str said:

Tapped horns will lead to higher distortion, just a downside to the design.

Hofmann's Iron Law applies, but note that modulation distortion isn't created equal in direct radiators vs. horn-loaded.  Direct radiating drivers must move about 5X as far for the same on-axis SPL than compared to those same drivers used with horn loading.  That translates into much, much higher modulation distortion.  How much more?  About 20-25 dB (SPL) more.  It's the modulation distortion that sounds bad, not harmonic distortion. 

 

TH and conventional horn-loading differ only in their efficiencies: TH subs are less efficient (like Hofmann's Iron Law states)--but note that the difference is size. If you try to make a conventional horn smaller, it will be less efficient and it will also have higher distortion than a larger horn.

 

That's why Klipsch and Associates is the company that it is today.

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At 70 inches tall, the lilwrecker is a sizeable footprint but, the other dimension are not so bad.  There is not much trouble with the height since nothing needs to go in that space.  You have a large space and with a little creativity, you can get two subs in the room.  I'm also in a large space and managed to get more that two into the room.

 

If this is a basement HT, this will not be overkill.  Then something smaller for the back of the room.  The other option is something smaller and adding some TT's.  TT's can easily makeup in the tactile response department for several large subs.  TT's are also great for a family room since they have a high WAF and don't take up any floor space.

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2 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Hofmann's Iron Law applies, but note that modulation distortion isn't created equal in direct radiators vs. horn-loaded.  Direct radiating drivers must move about 5X as far for the same on-axis SPL than compared to those same drivers used with horn loading.  That translates into much, much higher modulation distortion.  How much more?  About 20-25 dB (SPL) more.  It's the modulation distortion that sounds bad, not harmonic distortion. 

 

TH and conventional horn-loading differ only in their efficiencies: TH subs are less efficient (like Hofmann's Iron Law states)--but note that the difference is size. If you try to make a conventional horn smaller, it will be less efficient and it will also have higher distortion than a larger horn.

 

That's why Klipsch and Associates is the company that it is today.

 

 

Tapped horns will be lower in didtortion than direct radiating subwoofers, true.

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I would not be overly concerned with distortion as Chris pointed out.  You are not going to be playing the sub near it's limits 95 +% of the time and not with most movies.  Another consideration is a LLT, which is a direct radiator but, without all the problems with phase near tuning since it is so low in the passband.  The down side, these are also very large but, have lower distortion.

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The point of the discussion on Geddes is that you really need two or more subs, not one...to get reasonable FR in-room at either the listening position and/or somewhere else. 

 

If you're going to live with one sub, then the rationale should be--according to Geddes and the requirement for music performance with Jubs, combined--is that you don't have room for two TH subs (i.e., smaller footprint and size than conventional). If your conventional sub is larger than two TH subs, you're not doing yourself a favor by using one larger sub (in terms of in-room FR variability) if total size matters.  That's the point to Geddes's discussions on the subject...and my first hand experience as well.

 

Three subs are better than two, but not nearly as much as two subs over one.

 

Chris

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2 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

I would not be overly concerned with distortion as Chris pointed out.  You are not going to be playing the sub near it's limits 95 +% of the time and not with most movies.  Another consideration is a LLT, which is a direct radiator but, without all the problems with phase near tuning since it is so low in the passband.  The down side, these are also very large but, have lower distortion.

 

Direct radiators and horns don't mix well.

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Yes, I've heard that before on this forum.  I'm mentioning an LLT because he is trying to get to 16 Hz and getting low is not what horn subs do best unless the box is prohibitively large.  Either way, if purchasing Jubs, Khorn or some of the other expensive horn speakers, and considering a system for music, I would certainly invest in getting some measurement gear to get the ultimate fidelity out of the system. 

 

I've been pursing this ULF thing for a while and people forget there is a lot of tactile response in the 20-40 Hz region and you just need enough spl to drive it.  He could even get by with some smaller horn subs in the front and TT's for the seats with some smaller subs in the rear of the room.  A distributed bass system will have the best room response.

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1 minute ago, derrickdj1 said:

Yes, I've heard that before on this forum.  I'm mentioning an LLT because he is trying to get to 16 Hz and getting low is not what horn subs do best unless the box is prohibitively large.  Either way, if purchasing Jubs, Khorn or some of the other expensive horn speakers, and considering a system for music, I would certainly invest in getting some measurement gear to get the ultimate fidelity out of the system. 

 

I've been pursing this ULF thing for a while and people forget there is a lot of tactile response in the 20-40 Hz region and you just need enough spl to drive it.  He could even get by with some smaller horn subs in the front and TT's for the seats with some smaller subs in the rear of the room.  A distributed bass system will have the best room response.

 

Horns can be EQ'd just like any other design.

 

 

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There is no science in the world backing up this aversion to direct radiating bass...especially for a narrow bandwidth subwoofer.

 

There are measurements however that disagree with the claims presented thus far, which also lines up with the science. I'm not going to debate it though because these guys have drunk too much kool-aid.

 

I have always been a proponent of audio purchases aligning with long-term goals. If you want to go the IB route in the future, then perhaps you might consider investing in the IB drivers now, and installing them in a slightly different cabinet alignment. That can be hard with the IB drivers, but would be something worth investigating I think. Plenty of guys on the AVS forum to help hash out the details.

 

What kind of amplifier will you be running for the sub? 

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On 2/4/2017 at 8:28 AM, derrickdj1 said:

Yes, I've heard that before on this forum.  I'm mentioning an LLT because he is trying to get to 16 Hz and getting low is not what horn subs do best unless the box is prohibitively large.

The TH-SPUD is a 13.4 Hz horn (21 feet path length).  If you put it behind a Jubilee bass bin in a room corner, it adds about 3 feet to the horn path length (11.8 Hz is the 1/4 wavelength frequency). 

THSPUD-B_ISO.png

I would mention that horn-loaded subs outperform direct radiating subs in all ways that I'd be interested in for this discussion (Jubs).

 

Chris

TH-Spud-spec-sheet11.pdf

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5 minutes ago, DrWho said:

There is no science in the world backing up this aversion to direct radiating bass...especially for a narrow bandwidth subwoofer.

 

There are measurements however that disagree with the claims presented thus far, which also lines up with the science. I'm not going to debate it though because these guys have drunk too much kool-aid.

 

I have always been a proponent of audio purchases aligning with long-term goals. If you want to go the IB route in the future, then perhaps you might consider investing in the IB drivers now, and installing them in a slightly different cabinet alignment. That can be hard with the IB drivers, but would be something worth investigating I think. Plenty of guys on the AVS forum to help hash out the details.

 

What kind of amplifier will you be running for the sub? 

 

Distortion is easy to detect when crossing over from the mains to sub not to mention the difference in sound qualities.

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