Deang Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 http://www.pentalaboratories.com/audio_help6.asp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Thanks, I needed that... ------------------ My System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 "SE amps made with low-mu triodes can have very low distortion, IF they are properly designed. Beware of some SE amps that are designed entirely "by ear", especially those made by small companies run by audio-guru egomaniacs." What an extremely unbiased outlook. He needs another feather in his cap... The text is another example of near truth, some truth, and half truth, mixed with biases opinion that pops out like cracked tibula. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 That's funny mobile I hate to say this but he reminded me of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Yep. We write exactly alike. Same word usage. Very similar ways of looking at things. This is why amp comparisons in here are almost meaningless and why sometimes I would rather sear my arm in a grease fire than open this forum. kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-20-2002 at 09:09 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 good bye !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poleelop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I actually enjoyed the article too. kh....the grease fire thingy made me think of something that happened to me today. My wife is out of town, so I thought I'd be BAD. Of course, I must be getting old because being bad for me means I decided to cook something I wouldn't normally cook.....fried chicken. I only make the best in the world, so why not? Anyway, you know how chicken kinda pops sometimes when you fry it...and splatters grease everywhere? Well, for the first time in my life, I got hot splattered grease in my eye. It must have bounced off my the corner of my eye because my vision was a little blurry afterwards, but my eyeball didn't hurt. The skin in the corner of the eye hurt like hell, but that will heal. The bottom line is that I won't go blind.....at least not from frying chicken. I heard some of my other habits will cause blindness, but that's another story. Anyway, it was unfortunate that the only sound in my kitchen was frying chicken. I sure would have enjoyed some music, but my forte II's are sitting alone in my office....not hooked up to anything....because I still haven't bought a DAMN TUBE AMP!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Thanks for the link. I put up a post a while back with questions about class A, A/B etc. and this link was helpful. mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 20, 2002 Author Share Posted September 20, 2002 I didn't post the link to spark debate. I just thought it contained nice, fairly concise explanations regarding the circuits. I agree with Kelly's opinion regarding the statement. If one compares the sound of equipment designed by the "egomaniacs" who actually LISTEN to their designs, to engineers who paint by the numbers -- well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Hey, the search engine does work sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 "Beware of some SE amps that are designed entirely "by ear", especially those made by small companies run by audio-guru egomaniacs. The amps made by such firms might NOT do everything well, and might not be the sound you would prefer." It's probably a bit of a jab directed at the New York Triode gang to which he was at war. I like the "might not be the sound you would prefer" Can someone name me an amp that did please every soul on Earth? The audio factions are so tiresome to me. At first there is this SS vs tubes conflict. Then there is this PP vs SET vs OTL debate. Enough? Nooooo.... PP guys will fight each other for phase splitter topologies and SET guys will argue over air gapped OPT vs parafeed. OTL guys will go to war about circlotron vs Futterman vs differencial balanced... Saddly most people will follow blindly a trend on the argument that they once heard one or two OTLs, SETs, PPs that sounded like ****. They can therefore justify their positions. Wisemen they are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 "...most people will follow blindly a trend on the argument that they once heard one or two OTLs, SETs, PPs that sounded like ****. They can therefore justify their positions. Wisemen they are..." It's so very hard not to fall into this trap. What makes things especially difficult is that it's just not possible for people to hear all things, and it's much too expensive to even try. What I think is closer to the truth is that the great majority of decent tube gear all sounds pretty darn good, and the compromises inherent in any particular topology just don't mean all that much when the music starts playing -- as long as it plays well with your music in your room. I think Tony's signature line says it all, "If it sounds good to you -- it is good." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Amen ! Now lets let this post sink back the pits of forum oblivion ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Disc Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I for one did not understand the differences from the electronic design POV. Perhaps Kelly or Jeff could provide a better link with comparisons of those types of designs minus the biased garbage. Better still, Kelly or Jeff could write it themselves. If they would even care to. - tb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 "...minus the biased garbage." What "biased garbage"? Maybe something like the following? "Many single-ended amplifier fans don't really want to know that the phrase "harmonic richness" is just a euphemism for harmonic distortion. And if you think that prejudices my thinking about the amplifiers here reviewed, read on. Too many reviewers confuse this over-articulated harmonic structure with increased detail, when, in fact, the truth lies in the opposite direction: the increased harmonics actually cover up real detail. This is especially true in the case of tube single-ended designs, which compound the harmonic distortion with soft-clipping artifacts because of their grossly inadequate power capability. And don't start in on speaker efficiency, since even a Klipschorn needs 30 honest watts for real dynamics. Whoever said that tube amplifier watts are bigger than solid state watts simply doesn't listen, especially for the kind of distortion products to which I am particularly sensitive. If single-ended designs have any real validity, they have it through solid state circuitry." -- Andrew Marshall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 I was just looking for a concise explanation of the different amp designs and this old link pretty much fit the bill. Lets not start another flame war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 Ahhh! Adrew Marshall from the Audio Idea Guide! My favorite reviewer of 'em all. For some happiness is through listening Holy Cole "Don't Smoke in Bed" on repeat through Bryston 4B and Energy Veritas. And don't get me wrong... That is perfectly fine with me! These won't contribute to the increase of NOS tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 tbabb goto http://www.aloha-audio.com/ select "Bay Area Tube Fest Presentation" from the Index Is that waht you're looking for? leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 31, 2003 Author Share Posted August 31, 2003 What I think is funnny is that speakers themselves generate far more distortion than amplifiers. The low level distortion artifacts being produced by SET amps are relatively insignificant compared to the distortion being emitted by drivers. Just like any other amp -- don't drive them into clipping and they're happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 31, 2003 Share Posted August 31, 2003 The key to the Single-ended amplifiers is this very point, however. Tube amps in general do a much better job, clipping far more gracefully than solid state. But on top of this, the SET amp even does a better job in this domain, up to a certain point. There is just about no more graceful an amp topology in relation to clipping. Still, as you know, with difficult load speakers with dips in the lows especially, the SET is NOT A HAPPY PLAYER. That is why setting up and system matching for a SET amplifier is THE most difficult, I have found. It took me a while to get my system dialed in with the Moondogs, this while having to go with ProAcs for a while. AT least these speakers are a very easy load, if not the lowest in sensitivity. The load can make or break the performance of these amps (so can the wrong cable, sadly enough. My excellent Transparent cable that worked wonders with my 200w solid state MOSFET monoblocks was relative dreck with the Moondogs). kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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