Was Heresy the First Sealed Speaker

[Guest wdecho]

You may be right about Dynaco amplifiers and clones with hum but there are tube amplifiers that are as quiet as SS these days. I just finished building a SET amplifier and it is one of the quietest amplifiers I have had with my very efficient LaScala's. Nothing from the tweeter or mid horns with ear against horn. Just a touch at the woofer when your ear is right in front off or inside the horn but nothing a foot away. When hum is not a problem from my listening position the amp is good enough for me. Even with a touch of hum at listening position with no music playing it is not a big problem for me in a DHT amplifier such as a SET 300B that makes glorious sound. 

 

 I do agree that many would be perfectly happy with a single mono system much as most had years ago. Turntables are more of a nostalgic thing but can and does sound really good being analog but with the drawbacks you mentioned. CD's with the right DAC has many advantages over LP's but I still have many LP's and do like spinning them from time to time.  

[ishwash]

So you guys know that I am truly am also a Klipsch fanatic, I just bought a two-pair Klipsch Chorus II offering on eBay, yeah, I paid too much, but who cares, not me at my age, and will pick them up in Dallas next week. My wife wants me to enter a Klipsch anon treatment program. I have a feeling that there will be a bunch of you undergoing the same treatment.

 

Now I can move my Klipsch Forte III's to my TV located along the side of our LR. Course at one end of the LR is my LaScala II's. The Chorus? One pair goes into the bedroom and the other to the other end of our LR alongside my cabinet where lies my computer (with my music), Yamaha amp, speaker switching and other associated stuff! It's not tube type and there is no turntable, but all my music is flac and the Yamaha has a DAC.

 

Cheers to all!

[ishwash]

24 minutes ago, wdecho said:

You may be right about Dynaco amplifiers and clones with hum but there are tube amplifiers that are as quiet as SS these days. I just finished building a SET amplifier and it is one of the quietest amplifiers I have had with my very efficient LaScala's. Nothing from the tweeter or mid horns with ear against horn. Just a touch at the woofer when your ear is right in front off or inside the horn but nothing a foot away. When hum is not a problem from my listening position the amp is good enough for me. Even with a touch of hum at listening position with no music playing it is not a big problem for me in a DHT amplifier such as a SET 300B that makes glorious sound. 

 

 I do agree that many would be perfectly happy with a single mono system much as most had years ago. Turntables are more of a nostalgic thing but can and does sound really good being analog but with the drawbacks you mentioned. CD's with the right DAC has many advantages over LP's but I still have many LP's and do like spinning them from time to time.  

Glad to hear there are current tube types that don't hum. It is always a surprise to see what Stereo 70's sell for; I am sure you can demonstrate that yours sounds better than my Yamaha. Ditto on the other stuff too. I just think flac with DAC is the best way for me.

 

Its to late for me to do the mono thing, but I wish I had tried it. At 79 my ears are still pretty good even though my career was around noisy, big equipment in mining/milling, so I am lucky 

[Guest wdecho]

10 minutes ago, ishwash said:

 I am sure you can demonstrate that yours sounds better than my Yamaha. 

 

Its to late for me to do the mono thing, but I wish I had tried it. At 79 my ears are still pretty good even though my career was around noisy, big equipment in mining/milling, so I am lucky 

Not sure about first statement, hearing is very subjective and can actually depend on music type one enjoys. For really rocking music I turn to my SS amplifiers but for most of my listening I love my tubes. I hope to turn 69 years old next month and like yourself consider my  hearing as pretty good for my age. Of course my hearing is limited to not much over 12Khz these days. 

[ishwash]

Yeah, we can't really be all that sure that we hear well, huh! My son is a gun nut, and he has poor hearing at certain frequencies because of it, but he seems to enjoy his music as much as I do.

 

Do I just Google to find the SET 300B amp you built; so you really did build it?

 

I loved all those old Dynaco and Heath kits. Even did a Heath color TV back in the day.

 

If there is no hum, I might build one or two. I want my music in the bedrooms and lean toward individual amps for each set of speakers in the two bedrooms because speaker switches can load an amp a bit too heavily because of what it does to speaker impedance. Does that amp cost quite a bit?

[ishwash]

So looks like 1000 bucks, and what are you using for a Preamp, wdecho?

[ClaudeJ1]

On 3/25/2018 at 9:33 AM, DizRotus said:

Is a Heresy a truly sealed speaker?  The first time I took the back off a Heresy to see the absence of a gasket or seal between the back and the battens attached  to the glue bocks, or horns to the motorboard, I asked a Klipsch rep that question.  The answer was, “It’s sealed enough.”

 

To answer your question, it’s my understanding that “sealed” speakers were available well before Heresy.  IMO, it was not a design that PWK originated or that he could have patented.

 

It’s my understanding Heresy was the first sealed, i.e., not ported or horn loaded speaker sold by Klipsch, but not the first sealed speaker.

Correct. When I asked PWK about why he didn't use any stuffing in the cabinet......his response: "I wanted a pure capacitance. Adding a resistive component would have created a slight loss and increase in distortion."

[ClaudeJ1]

14 hours ago, garyrc said:

There were many, many sealed speakers before either the Heresy or the AR.  Bozak, etc.  They were called Infinite Baffle and were generally large.  Sometimes, people would use the whole next room as the sealed container.  The ARs were pretty muddy sounding, due to needing too much cone excursion.  The AR 1 required 22 times the amplifier as a Klipschorn to produce a sound of equal loudness.  The Bozaks sounded much better, due to larger woofers, up to 4 of them, and bigger boxes. 

When I asked PWK about a picture on his wall, of he and Rudy Bozak about to hit each other with sharp axes,  he gave me the back story. So I asked him about Bozak Concert Grand speakers, which were his competitor.  His response: "I never measured them, but I suspect they had low distortion because of the number of drivers they utilized."

[ClaudeJ1]

1 hour ago, ishwash said:

Glad to hear there are current tube types that don't hum. It is always a surprise to see what Stereo 70's sell for; I am sure you can demonstrate that yours sounds better than my Yamaha. Ditto on the other stuff too. I just think flac with DAC is the best way for me.

 

Its to late for me to do the mono thing, but I wish I had tried it. At 79 my ears are still pretty good even though my career was around noisy, big equipment in mining/milling, so I am lucky 

Define "pretty good." Mine die off after 12 Kilohertz, which is just about where old K77's roll off. LOL. I really like your "flac with DAC" expression!!

 

[ishwash]

1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Define "pretty good." Mine die off after 12 Kilohertz, which is just about where old K77's roll off. LOL. I really like your "flac with DAC" expression!!

 

I tell my wife I am so happy that I have my LaScalas to play my cowboy (Waylon) music on...well, Neil Young still sounds good as well I guess I could say ears are good enough to enjoy the music I like. Who knows how good my ears are. I assure you I ain't gonna have them tested by the hearing aid turkeys. Course my wife says I have a few hearing problems, actually the problem is with understanding my (her) work list and agreeing with how she says I should do it...haha...

 

I sure want to try your Super Heresy mods on a pair of Heresy I may end up with from "up the road". I actually have a pair of Crites CT125's and a pair of his A-55-G midrange drivers that I put into my Speakerlab 7's that I would probably take out and use in the Heresys because unless I messed up on what I read, you said they ought to perform in  Super Heresys.  They are too darn loud over the base...probably need a Crites autoformer?...wouldn't know where to wire one into the Speakerlab crossover circuit though.

[Guest wdecho]

4 hours ago, ishwash said:

Yeah, we can't really be all that sure that we hear well, huh! My son is a gun nut, and he has poor hearing at certain frequencies because of it, but he seems to enjoy his music as much as I do.

 

Do I just Google to find the SET 300B amp you built; so you really did build it?

 

I loved all those old Dynaco and Heath kits. Even did a Heath color TV back in the day.

 

If there is no hum, I might build one or two. I want my music in the bedrooms and lean toward individual amps for each set of speakers in the two bedrooms because speaker switches can load an amp a bit too heavily because of what it does to speaker impedance. Does that amp cost quite a bit?

I built my SET 300B from this schematic with some changes.. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/300B-SET-Amplifier/

But mine does have a some hum but not from my listening position. I spent up to $1,000. building the SET 300B.

 

I would suggest this build which is much simpler and cheaper but outstanding sounding without having to fool with a DHT amplifier build and those expensive tubes. http://diyaudioprojects.com/Tubes/KT88/  This is a proven design built by many over the years. You could build it as mono's but i would not bother myself. No preamp needed for either build. 

 

[ishwash]

Thank you, wdecho, for the info. Sounds like the second alternative would fit my desires. Good to know there's no preamp required. You got it shining like a Harley too!

[Guest wdecho]

17 minutes ago, ishwash said:

Thank you, wdecho, for the info. Sounds like the second alternative would fit my desires. Good to know there's no preamp required. You got it shining like a Harley too!

When you decide if you want to build I may can help with part selections. Just PM. 

[ishwash]

14 hours ago, wdecho said:

When you decide if you want to build I may can help with part selections. Just PM. 

Ok, first though, power has always been used as a measure of ability for an amp. I realize Klipsch are very efficient speakers, but that efficient? How can this amp drive these big speakers?

 

When you use yours, are you only doing it at low volumes, private listening so to speak, and if you want to play your music loud, do you have to use your SS amp?

[DizRotus]

26 minutes ago, ishwash said:

. . . but that efficient.  How can this amp drive these big speakers?

 

Yes, that efficient.

 

It’s somewhat counterintuitive.  Big Klipsch speakers are efficient because they aren’t trying to get around the laws of physics.  My relatively small, and wildly inefficient, BBC LS3/5a speakers require prodigious amounts of power to sound good.  When small speakers try to bend physics to get big bass out of a small package, large amounts of power are required.

 

While rehabbing a 90 year-old duplex, music is provided by Heresy speakers powered by a 12v TDA7297 chip amp that I built as a microphone preamp.  It might put out 5 watts, but 3, or less, is more likely.  I can play loud and clear.

[Guest wdecho]

37 minutes ago, ishwash said:

Ok, first though, power has always been used as a measure of ability for an amp. I realize Klipsch are very efficient speakers, but that efficient? How can this amp drive these big speakers?

 

When you use yours, are you only doing it at low volumes, private listening so to speak, and if you want to play your music loud, do you have to use your SS amp?

The hype of more power equals better is a marketing tool trap less informed fall into. Everyone that comes to my house, I am talking about sound men for bands, say turn the music down some. I just finished building a 1 watt SET amplifier and it plays as loud without distorting with my LaScala's as any amplifier I have. Turn your system to as loud as you would normally listen at and then measure with a AC volt meter at the speakers how much voltage you are averaging. Using ohm law for watts divide the voltage squared by the resistance of your speakers and you will get the watts you are averaging. This calculator helps. http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator

Auditoriums were filled with sound using horns and 5 watt amplifiers in the 50's and back. Many of the SS amplifiers marketed for the general public do not perform their best at 1 watt or less. This is where tubes shine and I am going to bet you are using less than a watt yourself on average. My build last week. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/159805-the-long-awaited-little-sweetie-mono-sets/&page=6

 

[Guest wdecho]

1 hour ago, ishwash said:

Ok, first though, power has always been used as a measure of ability for an amp. I realize Klipsch are very efficient speakers, but that efficient? How can this amp drive these big speakers?

 

When you use yours, are you only doing it at low volumes, private listening so to speak, and if you want to play your music loud, do you have to use your SS amp?

I use to wonder for years how audiophiles could spend $30,000 and more for a SET 300B amplifier with only 5 watts of power when everyone knows more is better. You deserve it to yourself to hear what a decent tube SET amplifier sounds like. I waited till I was in my 60's before building one myself. When I first heard K-horns it was with a McIntosh tube amplifier and I was floored. But being young I thought my speakers would sound the same or better with a SS amplifier with more power. I was wrong. I could never duplicate the sound I heard at the store until I tried a decent tube amplifier. A good EL34 family of tubes amplifier being run as a triode SET is really good enough. This respected builder, tech is starting the same amplifier I recommended to you. It is a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBgo9Md8IU&t=

[ishwash]

Guys, this absolutely blows my mind. It says also, doesn't it, that it doesn't really have to be a tube-type amp; any small amp, SS or tube-type, will drive Mr. Klipsch's speakers to high volumes? 

 

Will these little guys "do it to it" with Khorns too?

 

I am totally in awe of these speakers that were conceived and built by Mr. Klipsch many, many years ago! They are not just a little bit more efficient, they are a heck of a lot more efficient! 

 

Was "clipping" part of the "bigger is better" hype too? Dynaco even pushed their C10 product (laying it on the back of their Stereo 416, which was a 200 watts per channel amp, I still have mine). The C-10 was a great big bank of capacitors that fed voltage back into the system to prevent "bass clipping" which they said or implied, whatever, was supposedly a product of too little power.

 

Thanks, guys...

[DizRotus]

1 minute ago, ishwash said:

Guys, this absolutely blows my mind. It says also, doesn't it, that it doesn't really have to be a tube-type amp; any small amp, SS or tube-type, will drive Mr. Klipsch's speakers to high volumes? 

 

Yes as to loud, but unless it’s high quality low distortion it won’t sound good.  Many people first heard Klipsch at a friend’s house when the friend’s father wasn’t home.  If the amp was one of the relatively high power, but poor quality, SS amps made to provide relatively cheap power to the inefficient speakers of the day, the results could be terrible.  A bad source played loudly with bad amplification through mercilessly revealing Klipsch speakers sounds awful.

[Guest wdecho]

5 minutes ago, ishwash said:

Guys, this absolutely blows my mind. It says also, doesn't it, that it doesn't really have to be a tube-type amp; any small amp, SS or tube-type, will drive Mr. Klipsch's speakers to high volumes? 

 

Will these little guys "do it to it" with Khorns too?

 

I am totally in awe of these speakers that were conceived and built by Mr. Klipsch many, many years ago! They are not just a little bit more efficient, they are a heck of a lot more efficient! 

 

Was "clipping" part of the "bigger is better" hype too? Dynaco even pushed their C10 product (laying it on the back of their Stereo 416, which was a 200 watts per channel amp, I still have mine). The C-10 was a great big bank of capacitors that fed voltage back into the system to prevent "bass clipping" which they said or implied, whatever, was supposedly a product of too little power.

 

Thanks, guys...

I thought I needed a Crown DC300A with 190 watts of power back then. I still have it needing repairs but it is not worth the trouble or expense. There are SS amplifiers that sound great with our speakers as well. I have built 10 or more of the Nelson Pass Class A amplifiers. I now have 6 complete ones I rotate in and out of my system. They are in the range of 25 watts or less and are called Firstwatt and Zen clones. They cost around $700 to build and require a preamplifier as well. Retail Firstwatt amplifiers are in the $3,000 and higher range. You get the same or better sound with a good SET amplifier.