timerr Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Wow! The difference of opinions is looming large on this one. I have no idea how many versions of this recording are out there, but the 20 bit remaster I have is NOT by Sony. It's by Columbia. On the back of the CD case there are a few paragraphs about how legendary the LP is. I'm not going to retype the whole thing but it mentions an additional performance of "Flamenco Sketches" It also mentions about earlier remasters sounding thin and piping to the ears. THIS reissue was remixed on an all tube three-track machine, (that's greek to me but maybe some of the tubies might get that one) an old Presto much like the one use for the original recordings. Now the instruments sound rich and full, like real instruments. It goes on to say that if you happen to be a musician, you may have already noticed a problem when you try to play along with earlier versions. Three tunes were in the wrong key, which means that the original album and ALL subsequent reissues (except for the recent gold Mastersound edition, which lacks the alternate "Flamenco Sketches")were recorded at the wrong speed- making all the pitches slightly sharper than in real life. just another 2 cents from the rookie here, ok maybe 5... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huhuru Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Tim Glad you noticed your CD. I posted similar info on 10/14/02 on DVDs, Music and Movies: Louis & Duke, The Master Takes. I have vinyl and two CD versions of Kind of Blue. Columbia Legacy CK 64935 CD is the best. Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 I picked up this LP in the Classic Records 200g pressing (new). Still haven't played it since my amp is on it's way to the "NOS House of Tube Repair"; I suspect it will be in surgery for the better part of a month or so However, JCTurboT was kind enough to offer his Scott as a short-term loaner so hopefully that may sit in for a week or so and give me the chance to listen to this LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Tim, Very interesting. Who wrote the comments on that CD? They may be missing the point. Do you really think Miles cared if other musicians could play along? Have you ever seen comments by Miles on this subject? There's more to Miles and his music than just the musical notes. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timerr Posted October 26, 2002 Author Share Posted October 26, 2002 Jazzman, I haven't read the comments from Mr. Davis, but would be interested if you can tell me where to find it. This new thread on this subject was mainly to defend the remaster by COLUMBIA. Some of the posts somehow had it confused with an apparent SONY butcher job. (like some other people here have posted, DON'T get me started on anything SONY has ever made!) Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Jazman, the back cover liner notes are not talking about the musicians, thankfully (or the ability for others to play along). It is referring to the belief that three of the tracks were recorded at the wrong speed making them slightly sharp (one deck was running off speed, evidently). The Columbia Sony SBM (Legacy CK 64395)version claims to have fixed this speed problem. They also give you an alternate take of Flamenco Sketches which is one of the reasons I purchased it (also, it was a whopping $6 at a Target. It caught my eye on the way to the "paper lamp shade" section heh...) This same version also claims to have remixed the pieces on an ALL TUBE three track machine ("an old Presto") bringing out more of the fullness and richness of the instruments. The "thin and piping" comment was in reference to all the past re-issues and re-mixes, especially the digital ones. This Columbia/Sony SBM release DOES have some nice liner notes in the included booklet. It also contains the full alternate take of Flamenco Sketches. For this reason alone, it's worth the price to at least own. And their reporting that three of the tunes were pulled from one of the two tape machines working that day, which was supposedly running a tad slow, and the subsequent fix in this remaster, is worth some notice just for historical purposes. That's the good news. The bad news is I think this CD, like almost all the SBM (Super Bit Mapping) CDs using this Sony method, sounds mediocre compared to the better vinyl versions. Hell, even the more inferior vinyl versions/reissues sound more natural than this CD, which to my ears does not have the life, air, breadth, resolution, or EASE of the vinyl. Yes, the extra take of Flamenco Sketches is actually worth it. But the sonics of this CD, despite all the attempts via the tube machine, just PALE to the vinyl, so much so, that I NEVER listen to it. Now, I have a handful of 20-Bit K2 CDs of Sonny Rollins, Art Pepper, Erik Dolphy, and others that I do sometimes throw on the Rega. And these CDs are actually quite good compared to most jazz, and are easily MANY notches more pleasing than the SBM Kind of Blue release. I have yet to find any jazz cd that is better than a good vinyl version but at least the 20-bit K2 versions from Fantasy/Prestige are quite good for digital. I cannot personally say the same for the Kind of Blue.... Again, if anyone is a real lover of this recording, you owe it to locate this on vinyl, ultimately a 6-eye version either mono or stereo. Hell, even one of the lesser reissues (no digital remasters) is worth having over any of the CDs. Put it this way, if you like the SBM remaster, you wont BELIEVE Kind of Blue on vinyl! kh ps- Tim, I just now saw your post. Yeah, it was confusing with the lack of references to the exact CD. Unfortunately, I think we are talking about the same one, I just kept highlighting the Sony aspect as they are the ones responsible for the SBM recording technique. And you are probably right, this is a better CD than other cds made of KOB. On the other hand, I dont think this CD is on par with the vinyl in any shape. It also suffers in comparison to Fantasy/Prestige K2 20bit digital pressings. If you love this recording, give it a listen on vinyl. You'll be surprised! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timerr Posted October 26, 2002 Author Share Posted October 26, 2002 Thanks Mobile, This thread began as a way to find out if the LP better captured the realness of the studio, and I want to get back into LPs...... snooping around ebay and lurking... Thanks. PS just saw the "sony" in the fine print on the CD itself, do you think I can sue for refund?... It'll have to do for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 My little brother has a copy of kind of blue on cassette tape that someone gave him awhile back, the liner notes mention also the difference in pitch due to the speed on one of the tape machines being slightly off. This cassette version includes the alternate take of flamenco sketches, I also thought that there was another alternate take on this release but I could be mistaken. I personally don't have a whole lot of faith in the so called 20 bit CDs due to the fact that once its on a CD it's still only 16 bit no matter what. The bit depth merely determines how many seperate amplitude or volume measurements we can have. 16 bit is 2 to the 16th or 65,536 different numbers to represent the amplitude of the analogue signal. The problem comes not so much in the bit depth of a CD but in the sample rate of 44.1kHz. There is a rule in digital audio called the Nyquist theorem. the Nyquist theorem states: The Sample Rate must be at least two times the highest frequency recorded. So the highest frequency available on a CD is 22.05kHz which is well beyond the range of human hearing. The problem is that recording that high a frequency we are recording only a triangle wave, not a rounded waveform, we basically have one sample point for the positive(compression)side of the waveform and one sample point for the negative(rarefaction) side of the waveform resulting in a harsh sound ,not very natural at all. But the human range of hearing stops at 20kHz(if you've never listened to anything loud at all) its true, but the interaction of these high frequencies is noticable. This is where we get harmonic overtones and a sort of fullness. Whats even worse is this triangle wave distortion occurs as low as 16-17kHz, well within the range of most peoples hearing(the last time I checked I could hear 17.9kHz pretty easily). This is why vinyl is better, a good TT setup can reproduce frequencies up to 40 or 50kHz I think. One problem with vinyl being as soon as you play the record once you start to wear down those small high frequency ridges. SACDs and DVD audio have much higher sample rates and bit depths than a standard CD, thus are supposed to sound more natural. I'm Sorry if I seem to ramble(gets off of soapbox) Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 ---------------- On 10/25/2002 11:58:45 PM Huhuru wrote: Tim Glad you noticed your CD. I posted similar info on 10/14/02 on DVDs, Music and Movies: Louis & Duke, The Master Takes. I have vinyl and two CD versions of Kind of Blue. Columbia Legacy CK 64935 CD is the best. Peace. ---------------- Do you not hear the hiss on this? I've never heard so much hiss in my life. Besides that however, the music just overpowers all the faults of the recording... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huhuru Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Mike I agree the music overpowers the faults. It appears at times that the "hissing" sounds like the drummer's brushes on the snare drums. My system could be the cause, needs upgrading. My System Klipsch KLF 20s Klipsch KLF C-7 Klipsch RS-7s Surrounds Sub SVS SV20-39Pci Receiver Yamaha RX-V800 TV Mitsubishi CS 40509 40 Tube DVD Sony S560 VCR Toshiba M-65 FM Antenna Terk Pro 50 Wish List: Yamaha RX-V3200 or RX-V3300 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 I had a talk about this aspect today with a cohort who wondered the EXACT same thing. And you are right concerning the brushes in KOB. To someone not familiar with brush work, they could easily mistake them for hiss. Good point. And there is some really nice brush work in KOB. The problem is, there IS that tape hiss as well. Do this experiment. Cue up "So What" and in the opening bars with just the piano and bass, turn it up to a reasonably loud level. Hear the hiss? It should be very evident in this quiet passage. This is what is going on under the recording and is also on the album though some issues seem to be more pronounced. But good point concerning the brush work. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huhuru Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 KH I agree that there is hiss on this CD. Just checked Miles on Highlights From The Plugged Nickel, Columbia Legacy CK 67377, appears to be a better recording by Sony. Huhuru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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