J Harris Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 Hey Klipschguy, My tweeters are still hurting my ears. I know it's partly due to the way the speakers mate with the room, but I do think they are out of balance with the mids and woofers, so I want to give this one more try before switching to a new set of speakers. All I've done is put in new caps and wiring on the crossover. The architecture is identical. What are T2As? Inductors? Thanks, J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 The T2A is an autoformer (transformer) that is used to reduce the output of the squawker and tweeter in a Heresy. The tweeter's efficiency is 104 to 105 dB@ 1 watt and the K-55-V squawker is 107 dB@ 1 watt. The autoformer drops the voltage at the driver's terminals to make their output match the woofer's. A side effect is the squawker and tweeter appear to the amplifier to have very high impedance. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 27, 2001 Author Share Posted April 27, 2001 J, The T2A looks just like a transformer and is mounted to the crossover board (not to be confused with the woofer choke/inductor). By the way John, excellent explanation regarding the T2A function. You will notice on close inspection of the T2A that it has small numbers printed next to the taps where the individual wires are hooked up. The LOWER the number, the GREATER the attenuation of the driver, be it squawker or tweeter (woofer doesn't use the T2A). IF your crossovers are like mine, the neg lead of the squawker will be hooked up to tap 2. The tweeter negative lead will be hooked up to tap 3. My mod is simply move the neg lead of the tweeter from tap 3 to tap 2 (which is also used by the negative lead of the squawker in my E type balancing network). This will serve to attenuate the tweeter output, but will not affect the frequency response of the tweeter. Just replacing your caps won't do much to balance the highs and mids. Really, the stock oil filled caps are pretty decent. However, adjusting the taps will have a huge impact on the balance. It sounds like you have nothing to lose after reading your last post. Crank down the level of that screaming tweeter and see if your highs, mids, lows and sound stage don't improve dramatically - mine did. Keep us posted. Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 Well, I just opened up one of the speakers and the E-2 network does indeed have a T2A with the arrangement just as you describe. I'm going to try moving the tweeter lead from tap 3 to tap 2. I'll report back with results. J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 Whoah. Wait a moment, this now looks different from what you're describing. Let me go into more detail, and then maybe you can recommend what's the safest way to proceed. First of all, there is a terminal strip with 8 pairs of terminals which all the leads go into. On one side of the strip is an uninsulated spiral metal clamp which touches alternate terminals on the inside. (I hope that's clear.) Secondly, the T2A taps are labeled as follows: 1, 0, 3 on one side, going up from the bottom, and 2, 4, 5 on the other. The negative lead from the tweeter goes to one of the terminal pairs. From there, a 2.2uf cap goes to tap 3 of the T2A. But the negative lead of the squawker does not go to tap 3 of the T2A. Instead, it goes to the terminal strip and ends. There is no wire on its matching terminal, but that spiral metal clamp touches it. If you follow the spiral toward the T2A, it then runs to the terminal of the negative woofer lead, then hops to the terminal belonging to the negative input lead. From here, a wire leads to terminal 0 on the T2A. I know I'm not doing a very good job of explaining this. (Does anyone have a schematic of the E-2?) If any of this makes sense, can you recommend how I might use the T2A taps to attenuate the tweeter? Thanks again! J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted April 27, 2001 Share Posted April 27, 2001 Ok Klipschguy. I finally found some time to make the mods hat you suggested. Here are my comments: first reaction - yeah there is a different sound. In some ways it is more balanced. second reaction - hmmm..sounds a little dead though. Third reaction - OK, the tweeter is still there, but it is a little overpowered by the new vitality (revealed vitality?) of the squawker. Final comment: I now need to boost the tweeter just a little, without making it as prominent as before. Now on to the comments of others. This has become a very popular thread since I last visited... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 28, 2001 Author Share Posted April 28, 2001 CC, You might want to give the mod a few days to see how you like it, if not switch it back - won't hurt my feelings and no harm done to the speakers. I do realize the mod is pretty dramatic. However, to me, the voicing of my Heresys now sounds "bang on" compared to my Cornwalls - which definitely have a mellow, midrange foward sound (I did a bunch of A/B comparisons with all tap settings). My Heresys before the mod sounded good, they were just "brassy and bright." I much prefer the new sound, it's really what I'm used to after so many years with the Cornwalls, but everybody has their own sound they like. Definitely, let your own ears be the judge. Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted April 28, 2001 Share Posted April 28, 2001 Hi Klipschguy, I'm not explaining the crossover very well -- in fact the positive lead of the squawker goes to tap #2 on the T2A, not #0 -- so I've drawn a crude diagram of it (not a schematic!) and uploaded it. I don't know whether it displays in the message or whether you have to click a link, but either way, it should be here. Could you please check it out, and then let me know if you think it's still safe to attach the negative lead of the tweeter to tap #2 on the T2A? Thanks once again! J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 28, 2001 Author Share Posted April 28, 2001 J, I just went over your diagram and compared it to the one for my E type I got off this bulletin board. Our crossover diagrams are exactly the same except for the following (provided the information you gave me is correct). 1) yours has a 33uF cap across the pos and neg leads of the woofer 2) yours uses 2.2uF caps instead of 2uF caps, but they are in the same postion in both circuits. 3) In my X-over the SQUAWKER and TWEETER are both out of phase with the input and woofer (the pos of the tweeter and squawker are hooked to the neg input). 4) In your E-2 X-over, the TWEETER is out of phase with the input, woofer, and squawker (the pos of the tweeter is hooked to the neg input). You should copy down the E type diagram at this site, make the above changes to the diagram (very simple - the diagrams are almost identical), double check your new diagram visually by tracing each lead and comparing to your E-2. Now you should have a good wiring diagram for future reference. ...Now onto the mod. In your E-2, the neg of the tweeter is hooked to tap #3 and the pos of the squawker is hooked to tap 2 - same staggered configuation as mine, just the squawker and tweeter are out of phase with each, where in mine they are in phase. So in your case, yes, move the neg tweeter at tap 3 to tap 2, which is shared by the positive side of your squawker - double check and trace the wire back. If you hook directly to the T2A there is absolutely no danger taking the tweeter lead from tap 3 to tap 2. JUST MAKE SURE YOUR TAKING THE TAP 3 WIRE AND MOVING TO TAP 2. If you are going to loosen the screw under the pos side of the squawker to put the wire from the tweeter under it - be sure, as a precaution, to trace the pos side of the squawker back to the T2A #2 tap. TRIPLE CHECK IT, IF YOU HOOK IT UP THIS WAY. By the way, stay away from tap 0, I don't think it's involved in the T2A attenuation circuit - hook up here and I think you'll get a dead short. One last thing. This mod is quite simple and staight foward, but requires some basic wiring knowledge and common sense. You do this mod at YOUR OWN RISK, so make sure you double check everything and even use a meter across the input leads before listening tests to make sure your not shorted. Keep us posted. Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 28, 2001 Author Share Posted April 28, 2001 J, One more thing, if your a little uncertain about whether or not you have the connections right, just try the speakers out on an inexpensive receiver or boom box before using your Bryston, Krell, or MacIntosh amp. Really, the speakers are safe no matter how they are wired up. The mod is quite simple, tap 3 tweeter lead hooked up to tap 2 on the T2A - no sweat, just 1 wire. (Sorry if I seem to have cold feet, I just have visions of somebody doing something insane like twisting the input leads together and then hooking up their $3,500 amplifier). Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted April 29, 2001 Share Posted April 29, 2001 Hi Klipschguy, Don't worry about me. I'm still learning electronics theory, but I know my away around a soldering iron (have built SET kits etc.). Well, I made the change yesterday. There's a definite attenuation of the treble. It's less earsplitting. This is more pleasant. But I have to agree with the poster above who found that it affected the overall balance for the worse. The sound is constricted and extra-dry now. Like it's being squeezed through a very small opening. I think the midrange might be superemphasized at this point. Don't know what I'll do next... I have a feeling I'll be listening to some other speakers. Thanks for all the words of advice KG! Best, J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 29, 2001 Author Share Posted April 29, 2001 J, Glad you figured it out - really pretty easy mod, (and sounds like, thankfully, easily reversed). The Heresy is a good speaker, but definitely has some compromises - sounds like yours can't be reconciled. I like my Heresys, but mine are used in a secondary system, not my primary - which makes for a big perspective difference. Anyway, have you listened to some of the biger Klipsch? They might be more of what you are looking for. When I'm doing some serious listening, I always use the Cornwalls which, in my humble opinion, are sonically pretty close to a no compromise speaker. Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted April 29, 2001 Share Posted April 29, 2001 Hi KG, Well, I'm going to give it some time and see if I adjust to the current setup. I've just turned up my REL subwoofer and I'm liking the setup a bit more. It's better on rock and folk than orchestral recordings, so far. I'm really interested in Cornwalls (have been for some time), but have no way of hearing them. Still, I've got a WTB ad on Audio Review. Since they seem to hold resale value very well, if I can track down a pair, I'll probably just buy it! I love the dynamism and musicality of the Heresys -- I just can't seem to get the tonal balance right. It's partly my room, I'm sure. J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted April 29, 2001 Share Posted April 29, 2001 It's me again. I tried tipping back the Heresys, and now they sound less constricted. Of course, I might just compensating for the 3db loss on the tweeters. It's still really dry sounding. When I compare to my Sennheiser HD-600s, I find the Heresys lack the fullness on the strings, the warmth on the french horn... they lack liquidity. Still gonna keep trying... ...J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted April 29, 2001 Author Share Posted April 29, 2001 J, The sound your describing is nothing like my Heresys. With mine, strings and particularly piano are full, open, acurate, and clean - much improved from before. With classical and jazz they sound best, with rock a little lower on the list - because of the bass I speculate. Mine do not sound dry and are still by many standards still a bright speaker, but definitely midrange foward - which is distinctly "that Klipsch sound." Oh, by the way, my room is tile with area rugs and fabric upholstery furniture. Did you change your crossover in other ways that may be affecting your sound? Remember, mine do have different mids and X-overs. Anyway, I hope you get it figured out. Also, make no mistake, the Cornwalls are great, well balanced speakers that have a fuller, more room filling tone when compared to the Heresys. Everybody likes the Cornwalls who owns them. If you have a big room and can corner load a pair of Cornwalls, you will love them. Heresys tend to be a little frustrating to Audiophiles (myself included), Cornwalls tend to make you smile everytime you turn them on - even after 10 years of use. (Plenty of opinions on this BB about Cornwalls). Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted April 30, 2001 Share Posted April 30, 2001 Yes, I now feel quite certain that this mod limits the tweeter just too much in my two units. Although the Woofer and squawker are much more in harmony, the tweeter has nearly disappeared. Gone is that airy and limitless upper end that I used to enjoy, and only recently had become a little too raspy for my taste. I will restore the crossover, but will investigate other solutions that more closely match my expectations. Thanks for sharing your investigations. They will be useful when I formulate that "son of Heresy" speaker that I've been dreaming of, but may still be years off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc1091 Posted May 1, 2001 Share Posted May 1, 2001 Better fix? As you may have read in the reply above this, I wasn't satisfied with this free fix. Although it changed the sound significantly, I felt it did too much to attenuate the tweeter. So I took the back off of one of my speakers and removed the wire from terminal #2 and resoldered it to the Autoformer's #3 tap (where it was originally located). Before I did the same proceedure to my other speaker, I reconnected the speaker that I had just worked on and turned on my system. Yup, that tweeter was back to its old prominence. But this time with a difference, it sounded a lot cleaner (as you may have read elsewhere on this board, I have been complaining about the lack of clarity the Heresys had compared to my newer B&W and Klipsch speakers). Taking this cue, I proceeded to unsolder, and then resolder all the connections to the Autoformer (T2A). WOW. Much clearer than I remember these speakers ever being. Even the bass driver had regained some of it accuracy and presence. Bad solder? decay of the solder joints? I don't know. All I know is it has helped these old speakers. Anyone have any ideas why this may be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted May 3, 2001 Author Share Posted May 3, 2001 CC, I'm experimenting with a 12dB/octave slope for the tweeters in the Heresys in lieu of the tap mod to see which sounds better with my speakers. I'll let you know how it turns out. I just know I can't listen to that tweeter in its stock arrangement. Also, J Harris, I saw on Audioasylum.com that you have 10uF caps across your mids and tweeters! With the high impedance autoformer, which makes your squawker and tweeter look like high impedance drivers to your amp, your crossover frequencies must be very low for both drivers. You might want to try the tap mod with your stock 2.2uF caps (although I fully recognize it still may not be the solution your looking for, like in CC's case). Keep us posted! Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted May 6, 2001 Share Posted May 6, 2001 KG: Unfortunately I don't have 10uF caps across my mids and tweeters -- I must have mis-posted in AA. They're the standard 2.2 caps -- I just upgraded the originals to Jensen PIOs. Cornwalls hopefully soon! J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted May 8, 2001 Share Posted May 8, 2001 Klipschguy, why would you want to lower the tweeters on the heresys? Just run them with the cornwalls, im asking this because im trading my other pair of cornwalls and cash for heresys!! 2 pair of cornwalls is just way to much, i like the sound out of one pair rather than 2!! Besides id be deaf in 5 years!! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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