What if you had $25K to spend on a listening room?

[HDBRbuilder]

Hell...with 25 grand I could build a freakin listening COTTAGE!! LOL! Just run down to my timberland, clear out a space and build it!! Plenty of local mom and pop sawmills in that area, too...who the hell needs finished edges on the framing lumber anyway? It is gonna be covered, ain't it? LOL! A nice solid footing poured with the concrete slab base...two layers of diagonally laid good ole 2" thick tongue and groove southern yellow pine subflooring, nice scavenged hardwood flooring from one of those WPA era rebuilt high school gyms that get torn down all the time in that area...take the old chicken coop made out of "bull pine" 2" thick by 24 " wide, by 24' long lumber back in the early 1930's...plane down one side of the lumber and line the cottage with the weathered rough side out(absorbs those standing waves and reflections like you wouldn't believe!!), etc.... A pair of k-horns from eBay, with a LaScala center channel...powered by three matched mono tube amps I could build...and a nice antique dentist's chair in the middle of the cottage...what else does one need? oh...a fridge, maybe? LOL!

[Chris Robinson]

Builder, well THAT was a unique post! I just printed it and went and awoke my wife from her nap ... She basically told me when I could expect a call from her divorce attorney.

I used to camp a lot before we got married ... While we were dating I invited her on a camping trip ... and she said, "Cool ... I didn't know there were any Howard Johnson's left in this country!"

IOW, if she can't plug in her hairdryer and take an hour bath, it "ain't gonna happen ..."

She sure can make a kid, though.

PS: I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.

[HDBRbuilder]

Well, Chris,

25 grand is alot of money if you know how to build something yourself on the cheap. That cottage would have lots more to it than I mentioned. Just figure this...around here you can have a garage on a 4" slab built by somebody else for around 4 grand...talking about 24'x36'...that includes a steel insulated 16 foot garage door, four windows, and a steel insulated entry door...if you build it yourself, it costs half that!! Now just imagine how much it would cost for the basic structure for a listening cottage with an attached kitchenette, and restroom!!...especially if you do it on the cheap and build it yourself!! Hell, there are old turn of the century to 1930's homes in this area going for around 25 grand!! quarter sawn oak flooring, etc...they just need lots of work !!

When I go deer hunting on my land, I stay in the old 24x24' cinderblock "shop building" ...there is a hose outside, an outhouse out back, and satellite tv, a microwave, a bed, a couch, a rocking chair, a freezer, and a fridge inside...along with electricity and a wood heater...that is considered "uptown hunting" in those parts!! LOL! I just get up around 7 AM...walk back into the woods about 400 yards, climb into my deer stand, and around 830-9AM the deer come walking through there...it is more of a harvest than a hunt...LOL! I just pick out one...drop it...drag it out of the woods, butcher it...do the same thing the next day....do it again the next weekend, and my tags are all filled for the year!! Soybean and Milo fed game...lots of meat on the cheap!!

[fini]

Just make sure you wash your hands...deer guts play definite havoc with most modern audio gear! The swinging carcasses, in addition to their added, uh, atmosphere, do provide a certain amount of acoustic damping, reducing the need for vast amounts of silk tapestries as room treatments (Allan Songer...calling Allan Songer!!).

fini

[mobile homeless]

1. I am glad I am not a deer

2. Sounds like youre on your way to ideal listening room 400 yards from the house....as long as you ditch the TV...heh.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

silk tapestries? I am a poor Arkansas boy...to me the ideal sound dampening wall treatment is hanging up great grandma's hand made quilts...what better way to display them and get damping at the same time? As for the deer...there is a tree just outside the door for all of that hanging, skinning, and such. LOL!

Actually...I am quite serious about the cost of building around there!! If one takes his time...over a few months...everything needed for a nice domicile can be gathered up...some of it for free!! There are alot of the wealthy doing alot of remodeling and literally throwing away stuff worth more than what they are replacing it with, just because they are following the advice of their "Decorator"(definition: generally speaking, an individual who aspires to be an architect and contractor, but who has chosen to be a decorator because it doesn't require a licensing fee/bonding in order to make the same money doing the same thing, and neither does it require anything more than reading a bunch of magazines and having a few color samples books to show to the inept who hire him/her based on their "friends'" opinions). I mean, seriously...these people are ripping out beautiful solid oak/walnut/you name the kind of wood...cabinets and such...and replacing them with PAINT GRADE stuff!!...just because their decorator can make more kickback money from having both a cabinet shop AND a finisher involved in the process using the "dry brush technique that everybody loves so much today"!! Not to mention what is going on with bathrooms, bedrooms, living areas, etc.!! GEEZ!! All this stuff is throw away!! So, why not use it? Hell, you can go to a remodeling site and watch em tear out genuine black walnut veneered paneling...and throw it on the "haul to the dump pile"!!! Quarter sawn hickory or oak flooring being ripped out to haul to the dump so that cheapo laminate parquet flooring can replace it!! This is freakin INSANITY!!!

Sorry...but I am a woodworker...and when some "decorator" suggests the painting of a beautiful old solid cherry hutch with bookmatched panels so that it goes with the wall color scheme, I come UNGLUED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The very worst part about it all is that his/her clients always do just as he/she suggests!!!!!!!!!

[Parrot]

The destruction and desecration of all that fine wood is sad. I didn't know people were that dumb nowadays. I've been in lots of homes that had their hardwood interior painted white, but what you describe is truly insane, as you say.

[mobile homeless]

Well, I guess I havent seen this as much. If it's antique and historic around this area, with vintage, wide plank, heart of pine flooring, and great molding etc, people DIE for it and would do nothing to harm it. Now I DO see a lot of crap coming out of ranch houses but most of it is pseudo paneling circa 70s with even worse kitchen cabinets. Hell, most of the cabinetry in these houses was JUNk. I find the exact opposite if it truly IS NICE. People are saving quality wood from places WITH quality wood. OF course, some paneling can be depressing as hell, not to mention what the people of the 70s did with the horror shag carpeting from the mass market furniture stores catering to the lazyboy recliner with the blue velour with genuEYEne OAK handle.

Hell... most of the crap I see from that time was junk...

kh

[Chris Robinson]

Mr. Builder --- I do envy your sense of economy and I would suspect the deer herds are well controlled ... There are probably not too many deer assaulting the shrubs in your neighbors' front yards. This is probably a good time to run for public office.

I was wondering what the specific gravity of deer carcass is ... I just woke up Carrie (again) to discuss this (she gave me her attorney's card this time) ... and gave her the great news that maybe deers' heads would make better TT isolation supports than newborn humans.

Whew ... that was a close one.

[HDBRbuilder]

The honest truth about the deer population down there? Way too many of them!! The population is extremely high!! Now-a-days, people in the country are having to give up on even having gardens...the deer wipe them out before anything is ready to pick!! That is one of the reasons that the legal limit for hunting them is so high nowadays!! Sitting in front of Klipsch speakers, with a nice glass of your favorite red wine, some slices of hickory smoked venison, and some camembert...for snacking...nothing better!!

[fini]

Hey... I thought you said you was po' folk! You use a GLASS?

fini

[artto]

I built an entire room around my Klipschorns in the early 80s & the room has undergone a number of revisions. You & other readers might benefit from what I did & what I learned from my mistakes. The room has been published in several audio magazines over the years.

First things first. Ideally.you need a room with the proper proportions to achieve uniform distribution of eigentons (low frequency room modes). The ratio is 1: 1.26: 1.59 (called the Golden Mean) (see Klipsch Dope From Hope newsletter Vol9, No1 Feb 1968). It doesnt have to be exact. And rooms outside of these proportions have been known to sound good. Use the long wall for the stage. It makes a dramatic difference & you may even find that you dont have to turn-it-up as loud.

Another trick you can use is the Half-Room Principal (Room Dimensions for Optimum Listening and the Half Room Principal, IRE Transactions on Audio, Vol AU-6, No1 Jan-Feb 1958, pp 14-15). For instance, my room is 27 wide. A 42Hz note has a wavelength of aprox. 27. So based on the longest dimension of the room, the room will accurately convey the full wavelength of a 42 Hz tone. But based on the Half Room Principal, you can expect a reasonably flat room response down to 21Hz (21Hz=54 wavelength. 54/2 (one-half of the wavelength)=27.

If you take this one step further & use the diagonal dimension (which you can do with K-horns because of their corner placement & 45 degree angle toe in) it works even better. My room has a diagonal dimension of 32 which ½is one-half of 64. 64 puts you at about 17-18Hz. My system has measured down only 9Db below 20Hz with no electronic EQ. Not bad for folded horn-loaded speaker of this size. And in fact, that puts the K-horns at about 95Db/watt below 20Hz. Much better efficiency than any of the sub-woofers or so-called flat audiophile speakers out there.

A dimension you want to avoid is 19 (or multiples & fractions) thereof as it is the wavelength of 60Hz (electrical hum).

A quiet room is a good room. Avoid exterior windows if you can. In my room, I isolated all plumbing (sump & ejector pump plumbing too) from the frame of the house. The plumbing is also insulated. Same thing with any forced air vents. If you can isolate the rooms ceiling & walls from the structure of the house, do so. I didnt have the luxury of doing that. Remember that wall mass & no air leaks has more than anything else to do with blocking sound.

In my room, I applied silicon beading to the interior of the outside wall studs. Standard R-19 wall insulation between studs. Over the studs I placed ½ ½1/2 inch Celotex http://www.us.bpb-na.com/products.html rigid insulation board. Sealed the joints with silicon beading. Silicon beading over the Celotex where the studs are located. Created a 1 air space by putting 1x2 lath over the studs/Celotex. Repeated this process again. Then applied 5/8 sheet rock (Gypsum wall board). Since my room is only partially below ground, the upper wall exposed to the outside received an additional layer of Celotex with a 2 air space between it & the wall. Similar treatment was done for the ceiling. Ilbruck (maker of Sonex acoustical products http://www.mhtc.net/~lowey ) now makes a product called ProSpec Barriers which I would recommend using between the layers of the wall & ceiling.

I also heavily reinforced the corners for the Klipschorns, from the corner, to 8 out from the corner. I used a staggered 6-12 stud spacing, both horizontally & vertically to eliminate any wall resonances. I then made 4 plates out of 2x12 wood, fit into the studding & secured them & the wall, tightly against the foundation. I made a corner fitting out of 2x12 to fit securely & air tight (use foam weather striping) in the corner for the tail board of the Klipschorns to be secured onto. The corner board is secured to through the wall to the foundation with 10 ¼1/4 inch lag screws. The tailboard of the K-horns are secured with 8 ¼ ¼1/4 inch lag screws to the corner plate. The K-horns are sealed air tight into the corner with weather stripping foam.

In regards to electric, have everything on its own circuit. Im not sure that 20 amps is enough nowadays. Obviously this depends on what kind & how much equipment you have. Tape decks for instance can draw a lot of current because of the motors in them. Make sure you use an isolated ground for that circuit, isolated from the rest of the electric in you home. Ground the system at only one point, preferably from a regulated power supply that everything else is plugged into. Float all the rest of the ground connections on your equipment using a 2-prong adapter so that the ground(s) seeks their own level & does not produce any ground-loop hum. If you are using light dimmers, make sure they are the kind that have RF filtering. No fluorescent lighting.

Now for acoustics. The Klipschorns do not like dead areas around them, so forget that dead-end/live-end room stuff. It doesnt work with K-horns. I use large polycylindrical surfaces made from ¼1/4 inch tempered Masonite (a wood-based fiber hardboard) (cheap) bowed to 12 on larger ones (4x8), 6-9 inches on smaller ones. These can be painted to match room décor. Behind the cylinders I mount Sonex acoustical foam on 3-6 standoffs on the Celotex behind the Masonite so the Sonex can capture sound more effectively from all directions & angles. This produces a room with very well distributed/dispersed middle & high frequencies. The larger polycylindrical surfaces help to damp bass resonances & break up standing waves. The principal here is to allow the room to be relatively live at low volume levels. But as the sound levels increase, more & more reflected sound gets trapped behind the cylindrical Masonite panels & gets totally absorbed by the Sonex & Celotex behind it so the room does not acoustically overload due to increased reverberation time at higher volume levels. A simple thing such as clapping your hands can be very useful in locating hot spots or ping in various areas of the room which will require sound absorption or dispersion. Likewise you dont want any dead spots either. These Masonite panels can create quite a dramatic appearance, so be creative & experiment. Keep in mind that the bow in the Masonite panels will tend to push the walls of the room in making the room seem somewhat smaller. This can be overcome by the use of lighting to highlight the depth & curve of the panels.

[Chris Robinson]

Artto, welcome to the board ... and that was a GREAT post ... I want to buy you a beer, send you a thank you note and start a trust fund for your first-born male child.

I figured (in my mind's eye) that this room WOULD be windowless, have electrical implications and proportions that would be derived from time-honored rules. The practical implications, however, can only be acquired from experience. Your post was that in spades.

I'm filing your comments in my new "LR" folder ... and hope to have a few more discussions with you about this. I think you need to be a candidate for our new "virtual" high-end audio company. Read DeanG's recent post

Thanks.

Chris

[artto]

Glad you found my post useful Chris! There's a lot more to it, but those are most of the basics. You might see some pics of it in the Klipsch Storyteller Contest if Joshua Hall decides to show them. They were taken recently for the Japanese audio mag Audio Basic. Non-professional photos though. They don't really convey the dramatic effect of the lighting. Andhe offsets of the panels look a little shallow in the photos. I'll be posting some that are more representative of what the room really looks like after I complete this revision of the room. Then everyone can get a better idea of the things I tried to describe. In my opinion, room acoustics are one of the areas most neglected by (nearly all) audiophiles.

By the way, my cost for building the room inside of an already built home (unfinished lower level)in 1982 was about $15K, using my own labor.

artto

EQUIPMENT:

1976 Klipschorns (L&R)

1978 Belle Klipsch (center)

Crown DL2 preamp/control center/power supply

Crown PSA2 power amp (for normal everyday use)

Crown D-150A (mono bridged)(for normal everyday use)

Crown D60 power amp

Crown SA 30-30 (vintage) power amp

Crown OC150 output control center (mostly just for looks)

Audio Research SP-C preamp (used mostly for phono preamp)

3 Luxman MB3045 class A(for all practical purposes w/k-horns)triode monoblocks

Linn Sondek LP12 turntable

Thorens TD 125 MKII turntable

tonearms: SME III & Decca International

phono cartridges: Shure V15 type5MR & Decca Plum (this cartridge deserves some explanation of its design/construction for those who don't know about it...very unique)

Nakamichi Dragon & CR3 cassette decks

Sony A7 Digital tape deck

Denon DN600F Pro Audio CD player

Revox B225 CD player (1984)(yes it still works but is beginning to have trouble playing certain discs)

Yamaha T-2 & T-1 tuners (with dedicated outdoor antennas)

Carver Digital Time Lens (sucks on CD which is what its made for, but great with LPs, go figure)

And the latest toy (I used it in my bass rig rack for several years)...an Aphex Aural Exicter....still experimenting, but it seems to have dramatic benefits on some recordings. More on this later.

[Chris Robinson]

I'm sure we'd love to see those photos ... Can you upload a few in your next post?

Our mains are almost the same ... my Belle is a different year from yours, though.

You've got some pretty heavy duty amps there for such sensitive speakers. Have you read through all the SET discussions on this board yet? I would think it would be interesting to hear the difference between SET and your current SS set up.

Thanks.

[erikjohn]

Artto,

That was a great post. Welcome to the BB, your participation is welcomed.

I am building a HT romm right now. The inside dimensions are 28.5' x 23.5' x 9'-4". The walls are block. I am planning on screwing and glueing all of the sheetrock to the firring strips and putting polystyrene insulation in the gaps. I also intend on puting two outlets in for components, both 20A each and on their own circuit. I will be wiring the whole setup myself with 4-wire 12ga OxyFree copper and linking two wires for each channel for an effective 9ga wire. Do you have any comments on this room size. By your caculations it should be flat down to something like 30hz.

EJ

[mobile homeless]

Congratulations on one of the more enlightening posts in awhile!

Very interesting room. Do post the pics when you get a chance. Sounds like you really put a lot of effort into this aspect with good results. The point of the importance of the listening room is well-taken and should be noticed by all since it really does play a huge roll in determining the sonics and how far your system can go (or how much it will be undermined). The listening room can make a mediocre assortment of gear sound much better and a top notch system of carefully selected quality components sound mediocre. Sadly, most are relegated to the room by lack of choice but at least some qualities can be attained through proper setup, placement, and equipment choice. It's a good thing as most don't have the ability or means, not to mention space, to construct a dedicated listening room of this magnitude. Looks like you have been rewarded with some good sound for the efforts(not to mention the visual appeal).

The equipment list is quite interesting as well as it shows a variety of tastes and theories, especially when you factor in the use of Klipschorns. A few surprises with the Crown gear, especially the preamp (and amps). I used to use Crown a lot in my band days driving PA systems in addition to the host of Crown offerings at our University radio station. Strangely enough, it is Crown that actually turned me off horns in general so much so that I didn't even consider horns an option again until I heard them powered by low-watt tube amplification, with vintage and the single-ended triodes(2A3) leading the way. I made a campaign to sell all the Crown gear in the station listening rooms as well (ditto for the studio monitoring) as I just never liked the sound, and this was via studio monitors where the first watt is less important than vintage Klipsch options. They are built like a tank, but on the whole, seem rather grainy, rather flat sounding, with very little harmonic richness. They all produced VOLUME and plenty of it but were not well suited in the first few watts. Considering the importance of the preamp, I am surprised you are running Crown here as well. Have you tried any other offerings? Perhaps you are just using the Luxman triode monoblocks for Khorn duty with the Audio Research for phono, which would make more sense. Which model Audio Research do you have? I assume the "C" was a typo; if not, I have never heard of that model.

Also noticed you had a Linn LP-12 as well. Which tonearm is on the Linn? I know how finicky they are with certain tonearms and was wondering which was on what. I assume the Decca is on the Linn. I believe John Albright also has a Decca International and was looking for a manual. The cantilever-less London Deccas are not seen too often. I have never heard any of the Decca cartridges but Allan Songer loves the Gold. The Plum is not manufactured anymore correct?

I assume you are big into vinyl as the '84 Revox player must be a scary proposition sonically; even though Revox made some good gear, the first generation CD players and their brick wall digital filtering would be dramatically improved with even a lower cost Marantz or Cambridge unit. I think you would love the original Rega Planet based on your vinyl preference.

I have also been a lover of the Nakamichi tape deck as well although my Dad made an art form out of home taping. I still have the Nak CR-7a, BX-300, and the old wedge 600II sitting in a closet. Others have been passed on to family members. When RUNNING, there was no finer cassette deck made; see WHEN RUNNING as reference, however.

Sooner or later you might be wandering down the low low watt tube path.

Anyway, interesting post. Look forward to others down the line...

kh

[artto]

KH, thank you for your kind comments. I honestly didnt think my post would be so well received.

I agree with you about the Crown equipment, for the most part. I also used Crown in sound reinforcement in bands in the past & still do occasionally. Sometimes, if needed, Ill pull the PSA2 from the system & use it on a gig (my bands days may be almost over, not sure yet). I use the Crown gear because its clear & reliable. And because the room/system is currently used more for practice/rehearsal/learning songs than for serious listening which would be a major waste burning the tube gear. But, as you said, they can be kind of one dimensional & grainy, especially at lower output levels that easily drive a K-Horn. The PSA2 seems to be somewhat smoother sounding than earlier equipment such as the DC300 or D150s. The newer K series actually sound pretty good & seem to produce a little more powerful & tighter bass.

The Crown DL2 is kind of interesting. Its nothing like the earlier IC150 preamps. Its the first (& still the only) piece of equipment I could run any high level source through & not hear any difference compared to running the source directly into the power amps. I know. It seems weird. And it is. But thats the reality. I bought it mostly for its great flexibility in being able to tie everything together. For serious listening with CD, I usually connect the CD player directly to the Luxman tube amps. The CD signal first goes through a bridged center channel circuit (2 in, 3 out with precision pots to fine tune the gain balance) that I made based on the Klipsch Dope From Hope newsletter (Vol 11, No3 & Vol 14, No4). With vinyl I use the Audio Research preamp. Sometimes I just use it as a phono preamp, taking the high level outs through the Crown DL2 (since it seems completely transparent & is noise free). I also use the AR mains out directly to the Luxmans. This yields a more pleasant, but colored sound, albeit with more noise. The AR is a model SP6C. The letter suffix designated revision updates. It was originally a SP6A (the first in the 6 series). The power supply went out & fried a few things. I sent it to AR for repairs & had it upgraded it to a SP6C (current model at the time). Actually, I liked the sound of the early SP6As better. Definitely more colored & sweet, but incredible definition. I havent bothered with ARs more recent stuff, because, as Im sure you know, AR is a master at re-inventing the wheel & charging 5x as much for it.

I use the Decca arm only on the Linn. I use the SME on either the Linn or Thorens. The SME III has a detachable arm (as opposed to detachable headshell) (shifts the mass closer to the bearing carrier for better balance & less mass at the cartridge). This makes changing between phono cartridges much easier. Ive used the Decca pickup in both the SME & Decca arms. The Decca arm/cartridge combo is a real pain-in-the-*** to set up. The Decca pickup works really well in the SME arm. The Decca pickup has a clarity & solidity to it that, in my opinion, is unrivaled. The Gold model, I believe has a Van den Hul stylus. The Plum uses an old fashioned conical stylus which has certain advantages, especially with the Decca arm. Ive been looking for a Decca Van den Hul for years now. I dont believe any of the Decca pickups are made anymore.

Actually, I was guaranteed first purchase off the initial shipment of US CD players by Sony. That early stuff was absolutely terrible. I waited so long for the promise of digital & was really disappointed (see my contribution to the storyteller contest under K. It should be posted shortly, youll recognize it). The Denon CD player was a major sound improvement over the Revox. Its a pro audio model with pitch control which is something I need as a part-time musician so I dont have to keep re-tuning my instruments.

Ive already begun my search for a proper SET amp. What Id really like to get my hands on are the Luxman MB300. There were only 200 pairs of these made in 1984. I noticed a lot people in the forum using 2A3 based amps. I would think that the 300B tube would be the ultimate choice. Since these class A SETs have become all the rage, the cost of these units has gotten astronomical. Im thinking of building my own. Ive downloaded a number of schematics. Any comments on whats the best way to go?

I know someone is going to ask, so I might as well tell all now. The musician thing is part-time. Yes I play at the pro level. Mostly rock & blues. Mostly bass, although I also play guitar & some keyboards. My professional background is in architecture. Actually my degree is in landscape architecture with minors in architecture & civil engineering. I switched about half way through & wish I didnt. So please everyone, no landscaping or what kind of bugs are on my trees questions. Im not in landscaping (grrr).

artto

[artto]

Heres a few pics. The camera flash kind of washed out the dramatic lighting across the curved surfaces. Eventually I'll new pics when the room revisions are finished.

[artto]

Detail of Masonite polycylindrical diffuser/bass damper with offset Sonex suspended between the final interior 1" laminated Celotex sound board & the Masonite.

artto