Jotnar02 Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Here's the problem. During movies, my center channel sounds muddy compared to my mains (RF-3s). From everything I've heard the RC-3 is typically brighter than the RF-3s. But I have to bump up the RC-3 by 6db in order to even understand the dialogue. Since it seems that quite a few people use the RF-3/RC-3 combo I'm hoping that someone has run into this problem. During pink noise tests i can really tell the difference. The RC-3 sounds deeper and quieter than the RF-3s. I'm using a Denon AVR-3300 for my reciever although i doubt that's the problem. Maybe I'm just being too picky, but if there's something wrong with my speaker i can still return it so plz let me know. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted April 2, 2001 Share Posted April 2, 2001 Do you have the RC-3 set as large or small in your Denon set up? You'll want it set as small, so the bass below 80hz goes to your sub (if you have one) or your mains. It could be that the bass is "muddying" the dialogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotnar02 Posted April 3, 2001 Author Share Posted April 3, 2001 I have all my speakers set to small so that's not the problem. The sound difference is not huge but I'm just curious if anyone else hears a difference between the RF-3 and RC-3 during pink noise tests. Or you can hear it during movies if you switch between 5.1 and stereo. The RC-3 is deeper with more midrange than the RF-3s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 I'm not learned in the set up. However, check that all wiring is correct as far as polarity. An out of polarity center should have less bass, but it worth checking. My understanding is that in most HT receivers, you set the relative level and distance in a set up menu. The setting probably apply regardless of the input. But perhaps someone can comment whether this always "sticks". The HT receivers I've tested have a set up with circulating noise. The noise goes to just right, just center, just left, just surround. What do you hear there? Is the center muddy? It may be a situation that you have a blown treble horn in the center speaker or other defect which keeps it from working. If you can get some noise to it, try covering the horn in the center with your hand. If that doesn't muffle things, it could indicate the problem. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjam Posted April 6, 2001 Share Posted April 6, 2001 Jot, I'm using a RC-3 with Heresys and to my ears it is almost a perfect match. I have it set to small and my mains set to large. I also have a Denon AVR-3300. I'm commenting here because when I purchased the RC-3 my concern was mismatching the center with my mains, but this has not been the case. My suggestion here is to get a sound pressure meter from Radio Shack and calibrate your system and see if you still have a problem. ------------------ Bill James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted April 8, 2001 Share Posted April 8, 2001 OK, this may seem way off, but it has happened a couple of times so here goes. Check your RC-3 to ensure the tweeter is actually in place behind the horn. You can also pick up the speaker and tilt it to determine if the part has come off and is hanging by its lead wires inside the cabinet. There is a sonic weld in the horn to tweeter interface which can, under extreme shipping distress, break free. This would result in the sound you seem to be describing. You can remove the horn assembly and reglue or take to your dealer (preferable) for repair if this is the case. I hope it is something less exotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeorLaurie Posted April 17, 2001 Share Posted April 17, 2001 BOBG!! EUREKA!! I had a similar sound from my KV-1, investigated and what I have is your well described "sonic weld" that has clearly "broken free" on BOTH woofers! I guess I should check the tweeter too. Any other damage likely? Would replacing the woofers fix the problem? I was considering replacing the center anyway, but is the KV-1 a lost cause or might I be able to use it on another setup? Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotnar Posted April 18, 2001 Share Posted April 18, 2001 I managed to get a sound level meter from radio shack and calibrated all my speakers to 75db. Actually my whole system sounds better , but god damn, reference levels are loud! As for my RC-3, there's still no change in the tone. I tried everything you guys suggested and I don't think it's defective. I think the problem might be the location of the speaker. It's in a kind of cabinet so i think the speaker might be vibrating it at higher levels. Thanks for the tips! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted April 21, 2001 Share Posted April 21, 2001 JoeorLaurie, Wow. I'm confused. What weld is broken in both the LF drivers in your KV-1? I suggest you contact us via 800-klipsch and ask for Trey or Matt. We'll give you some Klipsch care and make things right. I should have thought to suggest proper level set up on this thread. You truly cannot do this by ear. If anybody out there considers themselves serious about HT performance and you don't as of yet own a sound level meter, get thee to your nearest Radio Shack and buy their (analog) SLM. It is a must have and will set you back only $35 bucks or so. Maybe we should demand a quantity discount based on being a Klipsch bulletin board member? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjam Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 Jot, appears you are on the right track, but please explain about the reference levels being loud. How loud are you playing your system? My RC-3 really plays no louder than my mains. The sound is what I would consider seamless which is the objective you want to reach. I think I'm fortunate considering that this speaker was not intentionally designed for the Heresys. Bob is correct, the Radio Shack Sound Level meter is a 'must have'. Bill J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted April 22, 2001 Share Posted April 22, 2001 Pink noise, with its equal energy per octave band, is extremely revealing of sonic differences. To think there would be virtually no difference in tonality between the center and the main is to deny the value of the test signal. Try listening to unmatched speakers with pink noise. You'll be amazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotnar02 Posted April 22, 2001 Author Share Posted April 22, 2001 When I meant that reference levels were loud, I meant that the whole system is extremely loud when all the speakers are set to 75 db using VE. I guess I didn't really know how loud 85db-105 db is. There is not much difference in loudness between my RC-3 and my RF-3s. When calibrating with a sound level meter I only had to set the RC-3 three db higher than the mains. The main difference is in tone. As I've said before, the RF-3s have a higher pitch using pink noise. However par of the problem seems to be the room. Since the RC-3 is sitting in a wooden cabinet, I packed some rubbery foam around the speaker and it actually sounds better, with less distortion at higher levels. I guess that cut down on the vibration of the cabinet. My whole system sounds good, I was just wondering if anyone else noticed a difference between the RC-3 and RF-3s when running pink noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 sorry, but better late than never. You mentioned that the RC-3 is sitting in a wooden cabinet. Give it some room and place it on a separate stand. I think the muddy sounds comes from that wooden cabinet. Had the same problem untill I placed the RC-3 on it's own stand with spikes. But still it is no RF-3. If it was feasable to put an RF-3 as center ... I would go for it ... but ... . About the pink noise. Indeed RC-3 sound a bit different. But that is not comparable to what my previous tannoy 603's as rear's where to my RF-3 mains. O boy ... . ------------------ ------------------------- Receiver: Onkyo 676 DVD: Pioneer DV-525 Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection Front: RF-3's Rear: RF-3's Center: RC-3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossVTaylor Posted May 27, 2001 Share Posted May 27, 2001 You should expect *some* difference in sound as the pink noise signal rotates through the speakers. In my last house, I thought I had a defect in my new receiver or in my trusty RB-5s. The right one sounded different from the left one with the noise generator. I switched speakers and the sound difference remained the same, so that ruled out the speakers. Must be the receiver, right?? Well, this was my first lesson in the influence of room acoustics. The left side of the family room had a almost full-length wall, while the right side was open to the kitchen/breakfast nook. It turned out that it was this difference that affected the sound so much. I really, until this, had no idea how profoundly a room could affect speaker sound. Then, when I bought a Radio Shack SPL meter, I was shocked to find out how far off I was in my speaker level settings. I had set them all to the same volume, using my ears, and I'd have argued that they were pretty darn close. Well, here came lesson number two. I was *way* off! That meter was a great $35 investment. Before you write off your RC-3, try moving it around a bit to see how the sound changes. And, like others have said, make sure you use a meter to adjust the balances. Ross ------------------ "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhalerCane Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 I know I'm showing my ignorance here, so pardon me, but bob, could you explain how you utilize the radio shack sound meter, and what is it you are looking to accomplish with it. I'm getting ready to get a center channel to go with my RP-5's, and I would like to be able to set them up optimally. Also, would it make a big difference if I went with the RC-1 instead of the RC-3, or should I stick with a RC-3 with the RP-5's. Thanks! This message has been edited by WhalerCane on 06-28-2001 at 12:42 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted June 28, 2001 Share Posted June 28, 2001 whaler, take it u mean an sc-1, but regardless stick w/ the rc-3. it's THE match for the rp-5. just because there's so much detai on the meter, if u search this forum for "sound meter" u should find much info. ------------------ Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear) Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable Marantz SR-8000 receiver Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr Technics dual cassette deck Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box Boa's Listenin Lounge: Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear) Monster MCX Biwires Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975) Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3 Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer Technics SL-1950 turntable/AT LS500 cartridge Sega Genesis game player Sub: None yet rock on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BobG Posted June 30, 2001 Share Posted June 30, 2001 You hold the sound level meter facing straght up at ear level while seated in your prime listening seat. Set the meter to read 75 dB at the 0 reference level (this is easy, just set the big round dial to 75). Use C weighting which minimizes sensitivity to bass standing waves (reading them will interfere with level setting) and set all your speakers to 0 reference level while playing the noise tones supplied by your receiver. Make sure your head does not block the path from any speaker to the level meter and do it a couple of times to get the levels just right. It will make a much bigger difference than you expect. Precise level matching allows your system to deliver the seamless sound it was designed to provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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