Once the Moondogs are gone..... Whats next???

[j-malotky]

Hi All

After reading Colins post and visiting his web site etc. I went to Welbourne Labs to look at the Moondogs since I am thinking SET in the next year for the listening part of my system.

To my shock... They have stopped production... Forever...!!!! Evan selling the last assembled pair by Ron with certificate of Auth.

There web site does not state what, if any future product will replace this line.

Do any of you have any information?

JM

[mike stehr]

Solid State?!!

This explains what he's got going for a new line.

http://www.welbornelabs.com/pipeline.htm

[j-malotky]

I missed that page, thanks Mike.

Battery powered linestage... HMMM. Looks interesting!

JM

[Erik Mandaville]

Have a look at George Wright's equipment. He's got amps that are easily on par with Welborne's. Great designer, incredibly durable build quality, very good reviews from competent and knowledgeable people. You'd have a number of choices as well: 2A3, 300B, 45 monoblock amplifiers and a few others. I have a couple of friends (with many, many years of SET experience -- like 50 years!) who say the new Wright 2A3 amps are quite a bit better than the Moondogs (which they happen to own, as well...)

If you wanna build your own, there are still a few options for that. Bottlehead, DIY, and a few others.

Good luck,

Erik

[mobile homeless]

I'll step in here and say that I have compared both amps at length in my own home. I dont know who is saying the Wright WPA 3.5 2A3 Monos are "a lot" better than the Moondogs but I dont agree. They ARE different but the idea of better is really not at play exactly. They did get a glowing review but most of the comparisons by reviewers focused on the Moondogs with the KR 2A3, one of the most unmusical 2A3 I have ever heard. Still, comparing the two is tough given the MANY COMBINATIONS of Moondog parts selection choices.

The Wright Sound 2A3 Monos are really excellent little amps with some of the nicest midrange of the SET brigade. They dont use boutique parts by any means which is plainly evident in the shot above. The build quality is just not the equal of the Welborne 2A3 Monos. What George does do is a great job component matching with a nifty circuit along with the excellent MQ TFA-204 output transformers (some VERY nice outputs in the mids). The WRights do not have the quiet, black background compared to the Moondogs nor do they have the low end power and heft. Compared side by side, the Moondogs have more easily recognizable traits that bring them to the front. Essentially, they actually sound like a more expensive amplifier. There is a certain control that is there with the Moondogs that is absent in the Wrights, a more vice-like grip on the presentation. And the notes do emerge from a more black background as noted. The Moondogs actually sound a bit more extended all the way around to me.

Where the little WRights are the equal (if not better in some aspects) is the quality of the midrange where it really is sweet in the best sense of the word; in other words, not slow at all, but very smooth with a relaxed presentation that is beguiling while still sounding resolving and quick. The Wright amps with the vintage RCA JAN CRC VT-95 2A3 are a very magical combination (this is a great combo in the Moondog as well). They actually have a more delicate nature about them. I happen to think they are some of the best deals in SET amps, especially used where a purchase is almost a no brainer as they will sell for the same price within hours on Audiogon. I am not too sure about the the Class A1 bias which does switch at higher volume levels. But within their range, they are nice indeed. The Moondogs run out of steam later than the Wrights, though (although I am making comparisons with mine Moondogs with MQ DS-025 output transformers).

As I have said many times in the past here (I have recommended the Wrights many times in dedicated posts), the Wrights are a no brainer decision in the used market. And it is a tough call as both of the amps play music. But ultimately, I have to say the Moondogs are the better amps. On the other hand, I am not sure how the Wrights would sound with different parts as most of their owners dont do much experimentation with modifications. You dont hear it talked about too much. My buddy's pair has only been back to George for the hum correction. He elects not to employ a hum pot but has fixed a flaw in the last batch of amps (he still doesnt include a hum pot however).

You cant go wrong with either of the amps per say. That being said, the new amps from Ron look to be pretty interesting and quite a departure from his last more conservative design. They will be direct coupled and have an ultra-clean layout. The amps can easily be customized with a variety of parts subs (with both 2A3 and 300B offerings).

I am sure there will be opportunities to get Moondogs used down the line. But both Ron and George have two different approaches to SET solutions, each with validity; I happen to love both and always enjoy my time listening to the Wrights.

The base amps from Ron will be cheaper than the Moondogs from what I understand.

kh

[jnorv]

Forget about the wire debate. We have the potential for a whole new knock down drag out fight over the best type of battery to supply thes babies. Just look up the debate on, I think it is the Final battery powered amps. I will admit that I was impressed by the Final amps at eh ChiTown horn fest. Nice and quite.

[j-malotky]

I find it absolutely amazing that people are still comming up with new ways to build tube amps. This is great.

Im probably 6 months away from making a decision on what SET to go with, I need to let the wife buy some drapes in our new house...

With this gang, I know I will have a lot of knowledge to draw from.

I really like the battery idea Welbourne is going with. In the past I found isolating the power feeds to my SS Macs made a real difference in sound imaging. So much that in my new house I ran separate 20 amp feeds each on there own phase lead at the box, with separate isolated real world grounds for each, both completely separated from the rest of the houses common ground bar. The building inspector and electrician think I am crazy.

I think Ron is on to something here that makes sence to me.

JM

[mobile homeless]

Well, to be honest, the battery part of the equation is really only set for the Ultrapath preamp at the moment. The Direct Reactance Drive amps have not gone the battery power route as of yet. As for the amps, some will offer tube rectification as an upgrade and prices will be from below $1000 to twice the price with options.

Neither one of these platforms was actually invented by Ron Welborne, however. Both are adaptations of circuits done previously (actually previously in VTV). I believe Ron has done his own spin on them.

The Wright 2A3 monos have basically stayed exactly the same since the first reviews. While some minor tweaks and improvements have evolved, some as minor fixes, it is the same amplifier. But it's a good amp and doesnt last long on the used market.

Look forward to Chris Robinson's remarks on his new (used) Wright Sound 2A3 Monos in the next week or so.

kh

[Deang]

Those underneath shots of the Wrights and the Moondog are interesting in light of what is twisting and twirling under my Apollos.

[Erik Mandaville]

Those are nice shots, Kelly.

That 'nifty' circuit is the absolute heart, spine, brain, and any other critical human counterpart one might include among those. I have found myself that less expensive capacitors (wright's look very much like the ones I use...)can sound very, very good. And if some like something else, than they should use them. I prefer my tea with very little sugar, others like more. I also like the form/function relationship of the Wright 2A3s. They are a simple strong box that contains an evidently very effective circuit topology. To me that matters more than anything else.

Man, these posts take lots of time. I envy those who have the energy to put so much into them.

I'm tired from teaching all day, and would rather go and listen to some music.

Take care,

Erik

[mobile homeless]

Erik, have you heard the Wright 3.5 amps? I know you have heard RON. It's really evident. He's not a favorite of mine either but the tune has really changed on your end from the glowing letters to mags and reviews from your side early on. No comment on the new amps by Welborne Labs either? I personally try not to let feelings like this affect the way I comment on things. I apologize if wrong but it's the way things have read since that bad encounter.

I hear you on the posting time. I am taking a slow backdoor out as I have been losing too much time in here as well.

kh

[blindman]

Upon reading about the "end of the Moondogs" on this forum about two weeks ago, I immediately ordered a pair with the ultimate upgrade.

I find the idea of assembling the kits appealing. I assembled my Dynaco preamp and amplifier in the 1970's. Not only do you have the pride in using something you built yourself, but it is infinitely easier to tweak, modify, and/or repair them when you know the circuitry that intimately.

I work at a local university where we get two weeks off for the winter break. I look forward to warming up my soldering iron, multimeter, oscilloscope and signal generator.

By the way, Ron Welborne was generous enough to upgrade the stock walnut cabinets on my Moondogs to birds eye maple at no additional cost. He had the birds eye still in inventory, and since the Moondogs are almost gone, I suppose he decided that I could put the maple to good use. Better in my home than collecting dust in a warehouse. He strikes me as a very nice person to do business with. As soon as I placed my order, I received a personal email letting me know when to expect delivery.

I wish more business owners cared about their customers...

[mobile homeless]

Glad Ron was a help for you. He can be more than a bit frustrating at times and I dont find him the most objective person in the World with his stuff, but I imagine if you are going to see the best from him, it will be in a sale.

I dont know if you got the Sovtek or the TJ Meshplate order. I personally would save the money and opt for the Sovtek choice as I think they are the more neutral and open tube, offering a clearer picture with more focus (as well as a slight be quicker sounding as well). These are the TJ Meshplate 300B/2.5v versions which are not the same as the regular 300B, instead designed as a 2A3 sub. I just didnt think they sounded as good in the Moondogs or Wright Sound 3.5.

kh

[Radiohead]

Well it is official. Aside from the "Last Dogs" all the kits are now officially gone. Hopefully what Ron has lined up next will be impressive. We shall see.

[Erik Mandaville]

Kelly:

Honestly, I'm really not letting any previous sour grapes get in the way of enjoying my Moondogs. I like them very much, and they are still the best amps I've owned. I tell you though, that little ASUSA shocked the hell out of me (not with electricity!) by how good it sounded with the La Scalas. I've done work on the Moondogs to get them to where they sound and function best for my needs -- and I haven't done anything to them in a long while except listen -- and even then not to the AMPS, but to music. For me that's the best compliement I can attribute to an audio component.

Know what? I still have some of the parts I bought for the Direct Reactance Drive amp. I guess you know it's not an original Welborne circuit, but one by Jack Eliano of Electra-Print. I just ran out of funds...good transformers are very expensive, especially since I was going to build mono-blocks. The fact that it's SS rectified (very smart circuit in that sense, too, since it uses appropriate resistors and capacitors to protect diodes wired in series). I spoke with Jack E. on the phone about this -- about art, as well...he is a very helpful guy, and said to stay in touch when I started building them...if I needed any help, feedback, etc.

Of the Wright 2A3s, I have a very good friend who is in turn quite good friends with George Wright. This friend of mine alos owns Moondogs, a couple of 45 amps, and others. He is nearly 80 years old, and has very, very extensive experience in this. He said he like the new Wright, tube rectified 2A3s (post 2000 model, I think) much better than the earlier rendition.

I was just trying to give the original author of the post an alternative to the Moondogs, and hadn't thought of the Direct Reactance amps.

By the way, I once mentioned on the Bottlehead site that the Foreplay is really a George Wright design, given to Doc B. and company to use. So many owners had been crediting him for such a fantastic preamp, that I just couldn't keep my big mouth shut.

Jack Eliano also has what I've heard to be an amazingly articulate and fast line stage, which I also have the schematic for. I'm so happy with how the AE-1 sounds now (finally!), that I don't have more plans for a preamp now, other than to maybe build a good phono stage for it.

Sheesh! this is too long...time for some rest!

Take it easy, spend lots of time listening to music, Kelly.

Erik

[Weiming]

The original design for the Foreplay did come from George Wright but it was tweaked and modified to become a Foreplay.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/bottlehead/messages/11712.html

[Erik Mandaville]

Right. Point is, though, that very little credit had ever publicly been given to the originator of the idea. Tweaking a circuit is quite a bit easier than concieving it, I would say -- I've tweaked lots of circuits, including the Fourplay.

I built my own Foreplay from scratch, but used tube rectification and a dedicated DC heater supply. The most frequent complaint about it from new builders are buzz and hum problems, often fixed by either filament snubbers (bandaids, but they work), or a filtered DC filament supply.

Anyway...I like giving credit where it's due.

[Chris Robinson]

I've been off the forum all week as I'm traveling, so this thread is brand new to me.

I bought a pair of Wrights and they're home awaiting my return. I might have a chance to hook them up this weekend. For the moment, I'll be putting my AES AE-3 into service and I'm not sure how/if it will color the sound. I think it's pretty "dry" since I've used it with some of my friend's tube and SS amps and he thought it was very neutral.

The pair comes with NOS RCA 2A3's ... exact vintage is TBD. He upgraded the connectors to Cardas and threw in free shipping. As Kelly says, "It's like renting them for free" ... If I ever decide to sell them, I'll get my money back.

One thing I will note is that the Moondogs are, without a doubt, clearly the winners of the beauty contest ... I suspect my wife will comment on the industrial look of the Wrights (although she thinks the Eico is "handsome" so maybe there's still hope ).

Chris

[Chris Robinson]

Just thought I'd toss in an update here on the Wright 3.5 2A3 SET pair that I got off of Audiogon ...

I got back around noon from the Detroit loop and came home to do a little online Christmas shopping. I've had the amps up and running all afternoon and they're just really knocking my socks off. They've got a wonderful soundstage, tons of air, and have a wonderful LF-HF balance. They just really bring out the most in these Klipschorns, which in this combination, are really in a class by themselves. I can understand why PWK voiced these speakers with the 2A3 tube.

It is effortless listening to music, even at higher volumes. Getting up into the 95 db range (which is about all I can take), it still sounds like wonderful music ... no strain, no edginess, just beautifully balanced all the way through.

The AE-3 still appears to be a fine mate to the Wrights, although I really have nothing to compare it to. Kelly, maybe on one of your trips up to Montreal you can drop in for evening

Absent any other suggestions, I'm thinking about going with one of Wright's phono pre-'s ... They come up for sale on Audiogon for about six seconds and then they're gone. I'm not wild about paying retail, but I'm missing my vinyl and these Wrights sound just fabulous. I don't think the phono stage can be too far off. I'll hold off on a purchase for a little while yet but would love to hear some suggestions from those of you in the SET/vinyl/Heritage group.

Jeez, this is really music. I'm going to hold onto the Eico -81 but I don't know when it will ever get any play time around here.

[mobile homeless]

Dont write off the little vintage solution yet as it offers a different take. Live with your Wrights for a few months and you will see the advantages of both although ultimately, the Wrights will probably get position #1 just as my tweaked Moondogs do.

Before you run out and pay retail on the Wright Phono, let me look around again. I guess it really is at a great price point with things like the EAR834 coming in the same place used (there are two chrome units on Audiogon right now). I think you could get some great options but hitting below $1000 is hard. I dont know if you got that mail I sent about taking a look at the Rogue 99 Magnum on Audiogon. This is a killer pre too with a built in phono but the price would entail you ditching the AE-3.

Looking them over now.

kh