Magnet Wire as Speaker Cable and Interconnects

[Deang]

Seems some people think the enamel covering the copper on Magnet Wire is the ulitmate dialectric. Many are using it for speaker cable, interconnects, and the internal wiring of speakers.

I did cut 16 inches off of one of my unused inductors utilizing 19 gauge copper. I made four, 4 inch jumpers for the RF-7's. It certainly sounds a little different than both my stranded Vampires, or the stock Monsters with spades using the stranded Z wire. I thought it was interesting that I could tell a difference, since the Vampires and Monsters sound the same to me.

Any thoughts on this?

[mike stehr]

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm

[Deang]

Mike, I'm pretty familiar with Jon's site -- I didn't remember anything about magnet wire for speaker cable out there, but went out just the same. Didn't see anything.

[cornwaller]

Deang,

Did it sound better or worse??

Cornwaller

[Deang]

It took a little heat off of the upper treble, other than that -- there weren't any other differences.

[mobile homeless]

Although you seem to be marching to the beat of your own drum lately, I will say that I did a Radio Shack 18awg Solid Core twisted with a 24awg Magnet wire for more top end smoothness. This replaced the first experiment of twin 18awg RS. In a way, I actually preferred the twin RS 18awg to the version with the Magnet wire even though a cohort in Colorado swore the opposite. He was also running Welborne 2A3 Monoblocks into Lowthers in Medallion II cabinets. I did extensive listening comparisons with homebrew CAT 5 cable braids, the RD 18awg solid core, and the ultra thin Magnet.

The Jon Risch Twisted Cross Connect bettered all the above to my ears. The parts can be ordered from DIYCable.com to make the speaker cable(you can order separately in or a Kit). I was really surprised and happy with the result. IT made a very nice difference. Audrey agreed as well.

The Magnet wire option was very easy to make though (besides the usual fumbling with a wire so delicate. In fact, all were relatively easy..but I have to admit, I didnt make the Twisted Cross Connect as it was sent to be from DIY. Another forum member made a pair with his son as a project and wrote how much he enjoyed it. Edster also has a pair.

kh

[Deang]

I'm marching to the beat of a different drum because I listen to the beat of a different drum.

Having decided at one point that cables made very little difference, I decided to revisit the subject after removing the Silvers from the RF-7's and replacing them with the straight Magnet wire. The Apollos and RF-7's reacted very strongly to this change, and I found myself a little confused. I decided just to have some fun, and instead of stressing out over the fact -- I simply enjoyed the experimentation. I discovered when relaxed, and just enjoying the tunes, changes that I once thought were too subtle to worry about, now seemed much more magnified. At evenings end, the Silvers, the MITs, and several variations of stranded wire were heaped in a rather large pile at the end of the room.

The SET amps driving the RF-7's, really do seem to favor a thinner gauge, solid core copper cable. I was very pleased with the outcome here. The Silvers, though softening things up, were also snuffing out dynamics. It didn't seem very obvious until I reverted back to the copper stranded. Later, I removed all of the stranded cable and put in the solid core magnet wire. This produced the most dynamics and solid treble reproduction without smearing at the the higher SPL's. With the Silvers, I couldn't hit 98db without feeling like I wanted to grind my teeth down. Last night, I was producing a clean, effortless, unstrained sound at 105db. So, to my utter dismay, the "problem" did not lay with the SET amps -- but the wire. Actually, It wasn't really the wire -- but the combination of wire, amp, and speakers. The "problem", in the event you are not aware, was this sense that the Apollos just weren't "putting out with the RF-7's". Evidently they were, but the Silvers were somehow restricting dynamics and CLEAN treble immediacy. Again, I should have pegged this pretty quickly, as putting in the Silvers was the only major change I had made since getting the Apollos. I was initially blown away by them, but then after getting the Heresies, the damn things almost sounded "muted" in comparison.

I don't think I will be commenting on the sound from changes in my system anymore until I've spent several hours listening. I liked the Silvers when I first put them in, and maybe in this hobby it is true to say -- the first impression isn't the last of it.

The Heresies OTOH, responded very well to the Silvers. The edginess exhibited on the RF7's did not exist with the Heresies when using these cables. I have no idea why this was. I will be putting the magnet wire on the Heresies tonight to see how they respond. Before it is all said and done, I would like to make some Cross Connects, as well as try a very simple cable like the Audioquest Type 2's.

At any rate, all is well on the launching pad, and I'm quite content with what I have coming out of the RF-7's and Apollos.

Some additional GENERAL thoughts here:

Horns and SET seem to favor very simple cabling structure of the solid core type. Less seems to be more, with a huge thumbs down on the thick stranded stuff.

Birwing seems to be out. Each time, the single wire config sounded more open and dynamic.

Jumpers need to be the same wire type as the main cables.

[mobile homeless]

Well, the horns and SET comments sounds familiar. I think I tried to inject the less is more via SET back in a huge wire debate months ago to lukewarm response. MIT, Transparent, and all other wire of this type, especially models with the RFI boxes, just sound slow, a bit dark, and too ponderous. Transparent Cable via my other amps sounded VERY nice, especially with SS.

Actually, it's not just SET and horns it's SET AMPS in general prefer simple cable construction, this whether hooked up to horns or not. With certain SET amps and systems, some silver wire based cable does VERY well. I seem to be prefer copper on the whole but have heard good silver.

The Belden bases cable is very nice and seems to work well with SET. I didnt like the Magnet wire option as much here but the homebrew Magnet couldnt be cheaper to try coming in less than $5 for the whole deal.

This last post of yours points to an earlier point I made in one of our exchanges. The making of conclusions in reviewing gear like SET etc can be very tricky.

kh

[TBrennan]

For what it's worth many hornies who are interested in wire think that silver wire is terrible with horns, indeed it's starting to become a cliche.

[mobile homeless]

I agree that some silver wire can be BRIGHT as a bastard. I also agree that I dont usually prefer silver wire either although some love it via SET. The very first time I heard a fully silver wired system was in 1989-90 via the Cary 300se Mono prototypes. I had been listening to the excellent Purist Audio Designs funky water cable and thought it some of the best sound I had ever heard at the time. I take that back, it WAS the best sound I had ever heard from ANY electronic device, that is, used within its limitations.

The next week, all silver wire had been inserted with the new Kimber 4AG silver. I was amazed at the difference. Holy loss of warmth! Detail was to the extreme but at a tremendous loss of harmonic richness, warmth, and character. From that day on, I wanted to HEAR silver before laying down long green and have not actually bought any since although it has passed through.

kh

[Deang]

The magnet wire I've been using is 19 gauge. I've read the threads on the Asylum using the 30 gauge in single conductor format, as well as aggregating it in a multistrand configuration. Reviews using these two methods produced mixed results. I think 30 gauge single is too much of "less", and the multistrand configuration defeats the whole purpose of keeping it simple. I do think there has to be a little bit of "meat", or substance to the conductor, the trick is finding the right amount -- without underdoing or overdoing it. Right now, I'm staying with the 19 gauge, until I can fully understand what Risch is trying to accomplish with the Cross Connect. I understand the main purpose of cross connecting is to lower the inductance, but most cables have relatively low inductance anyways. I'm betting most of the good sound is simply a result of using solid core copper and a superior dielectric.

I've been reading quite a bit on dielectric material, and though foam Teflon is considered the best for the coax type cables like Belden, most seem to think natural fibers, such as cotton are better. Even better still is air -- bare copper, no shield, no nothing. Hmmm. Or should I say hummm.

I like the Magnet wire. The enamel is applied directly to the surface of the copper, and since 65% of the current rides the top of the conductor -- it seems reasonable that a material in direct contact with the copper would yield the best results. So far at least, I'm very pleased with the results.

As far as silver goes. My Music Metre Silvers use (6) six 18 gauge .9999 solid silver conductors -- and they sounded excellent on the Heresies. Uhh...well, last night they did

[Deang]

Seems one can almost count on the fact that anything decided one day, can almost certainly turn over in days following. I'm not even sure if there is one single thing in this hobby of ours that can be taken for granted, or counted as a given.

Yesterday, I was cleaning up my mess from 4 days of trials by wire. I had pretty much decided to leave the magnet wire in place until I could try Risch's Cross Connect. I did end up putting 2 strands of 19 gauge on the woofers instead of just the one. I thought the bass sounded a little more developed with the additional strand in place.

I was cleaning all of the cables, trying to decide what I would be willing to sell. I reached over for one of the Silvers, and rolling it up, was again dumbfounded that it had performed so poorly in comparsion to the solid core copper. I then started drifting, and began to think about how poorly biwiring also sounded on the Apollos. What is it about an amplifier that makes it care about these things?

I was now holding the four silver cables in my hand, and thought that it would have been nice to have 8 of them, so I could have tried biwiring with all silver -- instead of just either the woofers, or the horns. It was at this point that I thought of the obvious.

Fool that I am, after I finished cleaning the room up, I went back and rewired using the Silvers on just the positive post of each driver, and used the magnet wire on the negatives.

Oh baby, you talk about something completely euphoric.

Evidently, biwiring works with the Apollos, as long as the cables on the positves are identical.

In the pic, you'll notice the blue interconnects. I bought these later in the day. These are .9999 silver over copper, with locking RCA plugs. You'll also notice the extra length on the set running between the AE-3 DJH and Apollos. This was by design.

Straight silver interconnects were out of my price range, but the additonal air, cleanliness, and coherency -- lead me to believe the silver over the copper was doing its job.

Anyone need some nice, like new, Monster 550i interconnects? 1 meter, 2 meter lengths available.

[mike stehr]

Have you come across any recipes for CAT5 interconnects?

[jnorv]

CAT 5 interconnects are easy. Just take the required length of one twisted pair and put the el cheapo RS RCA's on each end. For a higher tech interconnect, I spirl wrap 24 Ga magnet wire around 3/8 caulk backer and terminate with Eichmann Bullets.

JIm N

[mobile homeless]

I am still just amazed you are just now ridding yourself of those Monster interconnects. They are literally some of the worst IC to me bar none, depending on the version. I keep forgetting you were using them.

[mike stehr]

Pardon my ignorance Jim, but what is a caulk backer?

I know it's something to wrap mag wire around.

I have some 22 or 24 awg CAT5 left, I should try it on interconnects.

They would probably work better than the cheap sh*t I have.

Sounds simple and quick.

I think I even have mag wire.

[mike stehr]

Aw f*ck!

[Deang]

I looked, and read about the CAT5 stuff on Jon's site, and the Cable Asylum. One of the things I was looking for was an internal design similiar to the Monster 550i's, except with silver. I like the idea of dual, thin conductors, both surrounded by the dielectric. In spite of what Kelly says, the 550i is an excellent sounding cable. I don't which ones he has heard, but the 550i works good on the Reference speakers.

I've pretty much decided the cable thing is so system dependant, that making any definitive statements regarding the performance of any cable is suspect. The type of dielectric used, the quality of the plugs, the type solder, how the internals of the cable respond when bent, the output impedance of the amp and input impedance of the preamp - in relationship to the impedance of the cable, small differences in capacitance, total effectiveness of the shielding, etc -- all add up together to make some difference -- and what cable works best is completely dependant on the ancillary equipment and speakers.

I used to use some pretty high dollar Signets, which are almost identical to the Cardas Quadlinks. A 1 meter pair of the Signets ran me $220, and that was back in the middle 80's. After I got the RB5's, I decided to pick up a pair of the $50 Monster's just to compare, and I really thought the high frequency output of the RB5's smoothed out a little. I had all of my cables out -- comparing them. Outside of differences in RCA jacks, dielectric material, design (coax, as opposed to dual center conductors) -- the main thing I noticed whs the difference in the SIZE of the positive conductor. The wire in the Signets is much larger than the Monsters -- which is very thin (30 gauge maybe).

I do think high priced copper cables are a rip off. There is no doubt about this. You hold a pair of $200 Signets in one hand, and $50 Monsters in the other -- and it pisses you off. Copper is still copper, and though something like a foam Teflon dielectric should cost a little more -- I think $150 more is pushing it. It is more than possible, depending on your system -- that a $20 set of interconnects might sound better than a $500 set.

I went with silver from beginning to end because I wanted to see what would happen. I liked the outcome. Did I pay too much for the interconnects? Probably. However, they were the same price as most 'high-end' copper cables, and offered some well thought out differnces in construction compared to most of them. The fact that Carlin Audio knocked 30% off for me so I wouldn't buy from Audioadvisor helped -- still, $400 for both cables is a bit much -- even for silver and the very nice lock downs.

I say think thin. I really do like the sound of magnet wire as speaker cable, and I do wonder how it would do as an interconnect. I'm keeping the Magnet wire around, as I can swap out four cables, and completely change the signature of my system. I like both the sound of the silver and the solid copper -- but for different reasons.

At any rate, I would opt for some interconnects using 30 gauge magnet wire and a premium RCA plug, or even a set of Monster 550i's -- before the CAT5.

[jnorv]

Caulk backer is foamed polypropeylene. It has a very low density. Comes in 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch dia. Used to stuff in to large cracks before they are caulked. Get it at most building supply stores.

I wrap teflon, plumbers tape around the assembly about every 6 inches to hold the mag wire in place.

Jim N

[Deang]

Well now, that sounds very cool.

So, you are not using the caulk backer as a dielectric (since the enamal on the magnet wire does this), but only to hold the magnet wire in place while you wrap it. Brilliant -- what a great idea. I bet they sound great.

Did you try different gauges? I'm curious here, since I suspect much of the differences in sound between copper interconnects might actually be related to wire thickness.