Klipschorns, Cornwalls, The Horn Shope or Straight 8 speakers

[playntheblues]

Hello to all! This is my first post here and I will try to keep it short. I am looking for speakers, my first goal is two channel for music but would also like to augment it for HT. A little background on myself, I have owned Cornwalls about 15 years ago and loved them. I had made the mistake of listening to them next to a pair of Snell A's and switched due to the midrange clarity of the Snells. My last system was a Spectron digital amp (which I still have)VMPS RM 40 speakers Cary preamp and a bel canto DAC. Currently I am looking at high efficiency speakers for their dynamics. My room is 16' X 26' with a 10' ceiling. My first choice would be Klipschorns but I would have to build false corners and I am not sure that I want to undergo all of the work that would be involved???? My second choice would be La Scala's but after reading many of the posts here I'm not sure I could match up or afford the subs required to match up with there speed. I think La Scalas would be perfect if I could match a sub with their speed. Cornwalls are good but now we start to loose some dynamics. Other considerations are the Horn shope speaker with is only 92 db efficient or the Straight 8 diy speaker witch sounds like it would be cool (96 db efficient). Both the Horn shope and the straight 8 speakers would have to be purchased without hearing them. Any thoughts???? I would really appreciate all comments. Thanks and all the best, Guy

[playntheblues]

Hello again, Well I just spent about 40 minutes on the phone with Ed from the Horn shope and I am leaning towards getting a set of his speakers. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Mike82]

Hi:

The speakers you mention are all pretty decent, but given the dimensions of your room, The Horn, IMO, will not be sufficient to energize your room. The Straight 8 may be able to do the job. The LaScala or Belle are better suited given the HT aspect, but no sub can match their speed. You may want to consider keeping the Cornwalls which will have sufficient bass and be capable of handling the room size. The lack of dynamics (!?!?) you mention may be due to the amp you're using. I'd try some tube amps before unloading the Cornwalls.

[mobile homeless]

Your needs are rather complex in that you are trying to combine Music and Home Theater, something I personally find don't mix very well although you will have many that disagree. I just think the needs for both diverge somewhere after you turn the ole TV on. If at all possible, I always advise to separate the HT from the 2 Channel.

While many of the horn diehards i.e. Tom Brennan disagree, I think quality tubes compliment horns far better than even very high quality solid state. I just find most solid state on horns to bring ye olde listening fatigue after a stint; in addition, I just think the highs via solid state gear just aren't refined enough for the best horn production. As always, exceptions occur and many are happy with SS and horns. I personally wouldn't opt for this approach if I could help it.

For the ultimate in dynamics, I would probably rule out The Horn from Ed at The Horn Shoppe. Based on your needs I don't think this is what you are after. It's a nifty little rear loaded horn but runs on a 4" driver and just wont come anywhere NEAR matching the overall dynamics of other offerings. It is also just about the last device I would match with Home Theater.

As for Doc's Straight 8 speaker, these are not really horns at all but do offer more sensitivity so you can run low watt amplification. They were really developed to come up with an inexpensive kit option for more efficiency to run the Bottlehead SET amps. Again, I don't see this as a dynamics leader nor an option based on your post.

The thing about Klipsch vintage horn offerings is they really do thrive on QUALITY sources and amplification. And I personally believe they are slanted more toward jazz/classical tone wise. I think they can sound excellent with rock but it is way more recording/system dependent here. Some rock can sound pretty aggressive via Klipsch horns although, once again, good amplification, sources, and room really do help here.

I have a pair of 77 vintage Cornwalls that I have run with a variety of amps and a wide range of recordings, both vinyl and digital. I think it's an excellent speaker and hard to beat. It easily outclasses a majority of the high end speaker offerings with a good source and amplifier. While audiophiles look for higher wattage to get the heart pumping like an action movie with NO script or plot, pleasing in the moment but missing all depth, the lowly boxy Klipsch Cornwall offers up plenty of SOUL and amazing detail, all combined with dynamics and excellent bass. The better the amplification, the better the sound and HIGH WATT offerings need not apply as this speaker will cook with 3.5w of 2A3 monoblock power with a quality tube pre and digital or vinyl. Actually, there is almost nothing as stirring as good vinyl, tubes, and horns; the Cornwalls are essentially a forgotten CLASSIC except in the corners of the audio world. I find on 98% of all recordings, with GOOD amplification, the congestion and complication of a SUBWOOFER is totally unnecessary and detrimental the overall music reproduction. Perhaps if opting for The Matrix or Pear Harbor, all smiles will result...but with music, the sub is not a lovely site. If going there, make sure you get a sealed model for the ported subs are near impossible to integrate.

Whether to go LaScala or Cornwall is a tough call. The LaScala does have horn loaded bass, but it's bass that does not reach as low. Still, there is something to be said for a fully horn loaded speaker. I just find the bass via the Cornwall with something like a good vintage tube amp or a quality SET with good output iron to do the bass VERY nicely. My 2A3 Moondogs have excellent bass that is very succinct with good tone. Subwoofer bass rarely gets the tone and pluck of the bass right, especially if going acoustic where it kicks in below the output but still muddies from this vantage point. I just think the Cornwalls is an amazingly BALANCED speaker and sound VERY coherent for a 3 way design.

With the Cornwall you are talking 98-100dB sensitivity and with the LaScala around 104dB. These type of speakers make the first watt or so VERY important in the amplifier. This is why SET amplifiers do so well as their zero feedback, minimal part circuits provide some of the most sublime first few watts of any amplification device. There is nothing like a SET for that see-thru intimacy in the recording. Then again, I find the vintage low watt EL-84 amps to do nice as well. Right now, you would be hard pressed to find a better amp for the money than a vintage EL-84 offering with a simple circuit.

I guess more information needs to come from your end regarding music taste, listening habits.

kh

ps- Ed is terribly biased against Klipsch LaScala. I think his horn is a neat speaker but would not suit your needs.

[Colin]

Even though they are super-sensitive, cone line driver arrays, like the Straight 8s, are not the same as Klipschs big old horns. While I have not heard any cone loudspeakers quite as efficient as the Cornwalls, the ones that I have heard, which do come close (95, 98-dB/w/m), still do not sound as clear, dynamic, live or as life-like as the big old horns. If you like this sound, I would say go for the biggest and best horns that you can get. Having heard each of them, on the same equipment, in the same room, I would say there are more similarities between the Cornwall, La Scala and Khorn than there are differences.

Do consider the Khorns. The significant difference in the Khorn, which I love like a soft brown puppy, is an enviable smoothness over the entire frequency range, a noticeable warmth to its depth (though without the Cornwall punch) and an amazing efficiency. False walls are not too much to ask of a superb stereo system. Many tweaking audiophiles end up spending far more than that on less impressive improvements to their sound.

[JohnA]

I use 2 VMPS Larger Subwoofers with my La Scalas. the results are excellent. With a 70 Hz crossover and properly adjusted level, you cannot tell there are subs in the system. I am doubtful "speed" has application with subwoofers, but in any case, the VMPS blend naturally with my La Scalas. They are more than "fast" enough to match and with 2 plus 450 wpc, loud enough. At first I had one and it was enough, when placed in a corner, for all but the loudest rock and roll sessions.

[mobile homeless]

Twin subs Crossed at 70hz? 450wpc? John, all I can say is we must be talking apples and oranges here as for need and musical taste/reproduction. Even loaded up on Ibogaine and Bennies, I cant imagine such a system. This, in my view, is defintely HT territory. I dont think they have this ride at Busch Gardens yet! heh....

kh

[Colin]

While I always strongly agree with everything that Kelly homeless has to say and recommend listening carefully to his always excellent, detailed and reasoned purist advice, I must confess that with my Cornwalls, I enjoyed first one and then two subs, especially with movies, but even with music.

Though my Khorns reach only a little lower, their horn-loaded woofer does integrate better with the mid-range horn and overall response is smoother, obviating the desperate need for subwoofer support. Flea-powered amplifiers however, do benefit from some solid state muscle, especially when pushing the lowest impedance dips. Somehow, the mid-bass bounce of the Cornwalls frequency response made the desire for more subwoofer punch stronger. That, plus more live, un-amplified acoustic music listening recently made me realize how much closer to the real thing the Khorns actually are, compared to the big old Cornwalls. With the Cornwalls, I often found my subs set way above a flat in-room frequency response (I dialed up a lot of extra and unnecessary bass, especially with movies).

But make no mistake about it; all of Klipsch's big old horns get music right. And movies? Though the soundtracks on most cable and VHS movies leave much to be desired, especially compared to crisp Chesky, DMP and Reference recordings, the big old horns do movies better than most loudspeakers do too. They have a huge soundstage, clear and crisp, fast and dynamic, deep and high, with realistic resonance - and though revealing of quality equipment (because their super-sensitivity makes their needs so much different), they have excellent separation, nice texture and tone, and delicious details. Even with only two-channels, a HT with big old horns rides over the average chintsy six-channel HT system like a Harley crunching over a row of mopeds.

[ChrisK]

Couldn't agree more with Kelly. HT and two channel music do not mix well. I have separate speaker cables for my HT amp and two channel amp. I tried a switch box but found that it isn't hard at all to just switch the cables on the back of my CW's between the 2 amps. Not to mention that since getting into tubes/horns/vinyl my family spends far more time listening to music than before. So much so, that I am moving the HT system into an unused bedroom so as to get all the cable mess away from my 2 channel gear and further improve the sound. While listening to music you can...talk, read, cook, play a board game, build a tube amp kit, walk around, help your kids with homework, or just sit and listen to the music. While watching HT, you can sit and watch, or....uh....eat, sit and watch.

[mobile homeless]

While I dont argue that Klipsch might do movies VERY well, I just object to the two formats mixed in the same system. Movie soundtracks are almost always recorded quite a bit different and biased for IMPACT and KAZAAM with detail x 10, most of it hyped and unnatural. I love movies and grew up in a family obsessed with films. But mixing music and movies just doesnt light my fire nor system (and I have to admit to not being particularly most fond of movies that bring the surround HT into full play).

I just think we have dramatically different rooms and setups as I have found not an ounce of need for a subwoofer in my CW system, whether run by the 2A3 Moondogs, a 14w EL-84 integrated, or the various other offerings, both tube and solid state, triode or UL, SET or PP.

To be honest, I dont like ANY solid state amps powering my system, even in the bass mode. I actually dont think solid state does bass as naturally as tubes and have never been a proponent of dividing up my system with SS mega power on the bottom. And I just find that even great subwoofers end up making some of the open qualities of good amps/speakers in the midrange. And based on the music you listen to mostly, ie Diana Krall etc, I dont see how a sub brings anything more to the table that isnt just detrimental to the reproduction higher up the chain.

Not only that, but a sub loads the room with all sorts of problems. To me, it introduces unnecessary complexity and does not integrate with horns and good amps. IF listening to well recording jazz, the sub mucks up the standup bass and does a negative number on natural qualities of the bottom end. It provides impact and a certain addictive foundation, but at the expense of the naturalness of the reprodution.

I find AMericans are obsessed with BASS and this is bass that is not really all that honest nore natural to my ears. BUT, each to his own. WE have such different backgrounds and tastes, and it's a good thing to see the options.

kh

[TBrennan]

I've heard both "the horn" (which is not much of a horn being a direct-radiator over most of it's range) and the Straight 8 and thought both were poor speakers.

I heard the Straight 8 at a Bottlehead meeting and it was severely constricted and compressed powered by 2A3 amps. With volume set to the max one could easily converse over the music. And NO WAY I believe that speaker is 96db efficient, not with that cheap 9oz magnet MCM dome tweeter. 90db is probably more like it.

Also a friend built some Straight 8s, gave them one listen and hasn't listened to them since, they're collecting dust in his basement while he listens to proper high-efficiency horn speakers; JBLs and Tannoys.

I heard "the horn" at another Bottlehead meeting, this speaker was pretty bad. No volume, no dynamics and a poor tonal balance,very lean with no bass to speak of. I think my TV sounds as good as those things sounded. If one wants to try the single-driver thing you'd do better to order a couple of 4" Fostex drivers from Madisound and mount them di-pole fashion in heavy cardboard baffles, really, I kid you not.

Mind this, these are my opinions.

www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

[playntheblues]

WOW, here we go, audio hell! LOL just kiding. After even further consideration I you are right the Horns from Ed won't cut it. I have narrowed down my choices (with all of your help thank you!) A pair of cornwalls run with an Antique sound lab AQ1001 50 watts or 29 triode, and 3 Heresys with there new wave amp which is 20 watts per mono block. The other choice would be to swap out the cornwalls for Klipschorns (still have an issue with building corners LOL) but I'm not sure my room would be large enough for the K-Horns. What do you all think? Are we getting close to a great system? Musical taste is...blues, classic rock and we watch alot of Music DVD's...SRV,eagles,Paul Macarney etc. etc. I am also thinking that a sub woofer may not be needed???? Hmmmmmmmmm

[JBryan]

Guy,

First, if you're keeping the Spectron why would you need efficient speakers? Those digital amps put out over 350 w/channel and don't really sound right at low watts. I had a D-1 for a while and I can't imagine a scenario where it would sound good with efficent speakers - especially horns. If you're looking to change amps as well - forget what I just said. The forum has been littered with opinions of late regarding Cornwalls and La Scalas and the gist is that the LS offers better detail and dynamics in the bass but the CW goes lower. Both have their benefits but, IMO the CW sounds a bit muddied in the lower frequencies and I have yet to hear a sub seemlessly integrated with any speaker much less a horn. You'll need 2 fast and musical subs (REL comes to mind) just to get close. Even the well-regarded Avant-Garde speakers sounded like 2 distinct systems to me. If you're going for a HT setup, then its not as critical but for 2-channel - its a very difficult and expensive experiment.

On the other hand, I think your first choice is the best option as your room seems well-sized for Khorns and they offer most of what you seem to be looking for. The false corners are not that difficult to build and implement and frankly, I'd suggest them to anyone who doesn't have the ideal room. They really open up the possibilities and let you adjust the soundstage, image - even the bass response to some degree. Just build them even with the fronts of the Khorns and don't forget to use bottoms on carpet (better bass and much easier to move around).

So, if you're still reading this rant, I'll sum up by saying that I haven't heard the Straight 8 or Hammers but can't imagine they'd have the detail and dynamics you'd get with the Klipsch. IMHO, the amp you have is too much for anything you've mentioned when a good 10-25 watts will do an excellent job. The LS w/subs would be the most expensive solution; the CWs the least but most compromised leaving the Khorns w/false corners as the best solution.

[playntheblues]

I have just noticed that there is a pair of Forte speakers Locally for sale cheap. 1986 model for 400. Hmmmmmmmmm

[JBryan]

Sorry, that's the Horne Shoppe not Hammers, although I haven't heard them either. Kelly's right about trying to do both HT and 2-channel. Its full of compromises that ultimately, you may not be happy with. HT is all about sensation and effect whereas 2-channel is more about the illusion of being there. To each his own though. Good luck, Bryan

[playntheblues]

jbryan, the Spectron D-1 will be used for subs if needed.

[mobile homeless]

JBryan, this is the problem with words and their connotations. Calling the Cornwall bottom "MUDDY" with good amplication is just not the most accurate connotations nor descriptive as it departs are far too powerful image. I am particular as a bastard about thick, muddy, plodding bass actually to the point where I have used monitor speakers most of my life to avoid the pitfalls of larger systems. I dont know what amps you have sampled, but the properly setup Cornwall bass is NOT MUDDY. I find descriptions like this problematic in that they just dont capture the truth.

While there are postivies to the LaScala-Khorn-CW, I dont think that muddy would accurately describe any of the above. I will admit that amplification, setup, and room play a part. In addition, I find that EXCELLENT SIMPLE SPEAKER wire to make a difference as well. CAbles like Monster and other offerings ala MIT/TRANSPARENT tend to thicken the bottom, slowing the speaker down.

I do agree with your subwoofer call. But such loaded descriptions can be problematic.

kh

[Mark Hardy]

If I might weigh in on the Horn/Straight 8/K-Horn/Cornwall question...

Jeez, a pretty heterogenous assemblage of speakers! The only thing they have in common is high efficiency (IMO).

I haven't heard The Horn... If something like this interests you, you might want to look at the Moth Cicadas (although they're not horn loaded at all). Tom Brennan's suggestion (tho' slightly tongue-in-cheek) to try open-baffle single-drivers actually isn't a bad idea! Visit www.melhuish.org/audio and especially the "Full Range Driver Forum" therein for much, much more on single drivers.

I heard the Straight 8's and wasn't impressed. The issue for me wasn't inefficiency but presentation. The "image" for lack of a better word was all muddled up... I think this may be inevitable with series-parallel multidriver arrays (unless they're far, far away from the listener, a la PA system arrays). I am a big fan of BOttlehead electronics, but not the speakers (admittedly based on one audition).

As a Cornwall owner, I am kinda biased... but they are big (BIG) boxes and only you can judged their esthetic acceptability. I DO like mine an awful lot, though...

I'd like to say K-Horns are the way to go, but I can't because I've never actually heard 'em! I'd like to remedy this sometime...

[Chris Robinson]

Got a laugh out that comment that Cornwalls are BIG

When I picked up my first pair of CW's, I thought they were HUGE ... They filled up the back of my 4-door Yukon like a refrigerator. Then I got the Klipschorns, which filled up a MINIVAN (seats removed), and after working on them in the basement for three months and dragging them up into the living room, the Cornwalls have now been relegated to the diminutive status of ...

bookshelf speakers

[Deang]

Just a few thoughts here.

It sounds like you want to achieve volume levels that bring the music to somewhat live levels. I then think about your room size (and ceilings), and the fact that you are using 3 Heresies for HT.

You need to achieve several things here:

1) You want superior two channel performance -- You need to get tubes on the horns.

2) You want mains that integrate with the Heresies -- Cornwalls will give you the best timbre matching with the Heresies.

3) You want somewhat realistic sound pressure levels -- Room size, HT requirements, and the moderate sensitivity of the Cornwalls (98db/w) -- puts you at 50 wpc. You'll probably have to go ultralinear. You might get away with push-push triode, if you can live without the extremely high SPL's for HT.

Or...build your false corners and go with the Klipschorns. Doing this means you can go with SET, at 8 wpc or less -- or 15 watts of push-pull triode.

Subs really need to be SVS Ultras -- you might get by with one, if placed in the perfect spot.