Q-Man Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 Jim & Al, I went to bed happy last night, and now know that I won't be reversing. The AA has an autotransformer like Al's network. It has 6 tap settings, Al's has 7. After studying how Al's network is assembled I decided to take a chance and experiment with the different settings on the AA autotransformer. I found one that reduced the volume of the 288 by 3db and is very smooth. It is with in 2db throughout the range of the 288. Now I have to do a search on the forum about the tweeter protection circuit that this AA network has. I remember reading about clipping some due- dad. The tweeter sounds lousey compared to the AK-2, and the ALK. I'll start wth John Albright, I remember that he did this mod. Eariler I said that I didn't know why Klipsch would lower the volume of the K-55, since it measures about 6db down from the bass horn. So I thought that the 3 to 4db louder 288 would match the bass horn better, but it doesn't. It is too loud and somehow over powers the bass horn. I kept saying that it had to be right besause of the SPL measurements. My son kept saying that it was wrong. I lost again. The over-all speaker sounds much smoother now. If your used to the sound of the K-55/400 the 288/805 will sound louder no matter what you do, because we found out that it has a much better dynamic range then the 55. It plays the quiet sounds softer and the louder sounds louder. I guess this is one of the reasons that it sounds so much better and real compared to the 55/400. Now I know why the 55 sounds some what muffled. Being a bass horn nut, I should have picked up on the dynamic range differences sooner then this. I won't have to much time to play today. I do want to mess with the different tap settings on Al's network now and see what happens. Than I also need to find out why one pair of the 288 drivers is 3db lower between 400 and 630Hz. comparred to the other pair. Any Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Qman, One major point of caution: If you use the AA network with the wide-range driver like the Altec you may do damage if you crank up the volume. The AA network only has a 13 uF cap in series to protect the diaphragm from extreme lows. Moving the tap on the transformer will change the impedance this cap sees. It doesn't have the 10 Ohm swamping resistor to hold the load steady like mine does. This means the crossover will move all over the place. Moving the tap from 4 down to 3 on the transformer makes the crossover go LOWER! That can casue a desaster. The K55 has a phenolic diaphragm and take more punishment than the lighter ones used in wide-range drivers. Beware! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Q-man please do me a favor, before you put the side grill back on please take a picture of them and post it, or send it to me, i messed up pretty badly on the holes i need the cut out measurements, not to mention my mounting, there solid, i need to see the way of mounting also, thank you! Im glad your not reversing, now i caint wait to see your copmleted K-horn! Regards Jim Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 12, 2003 Author Share Posted January 12, 2003 Al, I played with your network today and settled on the -1,+4 tap setting. I hope this is one of your options. My pair didn't come with a #4 tap wire, so I've been experimenting a little. When I helped Mike out with his horn change I noticed that you added a #4 tap and different instructions. Would you send me four of the wire disconnects that you use so I can add them to mine? My final decision is to use your networks for this mod. The difference in this 288 & 55 driver change is now a big, WOW! Adjusting the volume made a big difference. I had three people go separately into the room taday and their comments were all very favorable. It was nice not hearing anyone say that the driver was too loud. One person pointed to the stock Klipschorn and said."That one sounds like it is stuffed with pillows." My son said that this is finally the right combination, and that it is a very obvious improvement. My wife went into the room for the first time in three months, since see heard me say that I think I'm done messing with it. Mind you see has no interest in this sort of thing, I was shocked that see asked to hear them. See sat down only for about ten minutes while I switched back and forth between the speakers on three CDs. She simply said,"That one sounds so much clearer,is that what you have been trying to do?" Duh! You don't have to listen hard or pay attention, this is one of those night and day changes. Now I can move forward and build my center channel false corner and make these tops for the left and right K-Horn look pretty. I'll post some pictures of a tail board that is built into the false corner, and a few other ideas that I've been wanting to try. Jim, I'l get a picture of the side grill up and some measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 Q, The 1 - 4 setting is perfectly ok. That's about 7.4 dB attenuation. I will be happy to send you the extra tap wires and plugs. You may need to wait a few days though. I will be having a minor medical procedure done tomorrow morning (Jan 13), so I'll be out of acton for at least that day. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 Jim, Here is a picture of the side grill. I'm holding it up to the light so you can see through it. I sketched it out and put some measurements on it and I'll scan and try to post it. Last time I tried to post a scan it didn't work. If it doesn't I'll email it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Q-Man, my compliments in your progress as a photogapher that last photo seems to do everything you wanted it to do. Just out of curiousity, would you say that my '98 vintage Klipschorns with the Klipsch updated crossovers would fit in that "stuffed with pillows" category... and I just don't realize it? =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 Horn Ed, When you say the Klipsch updated crossovers, I take it you mean the AK-3. The last time that I had my AK-2 and AK-3 Klipschorns in the same room I preferred the AK-3. I don't remember exactly, I think the AK-3 was a little cleaner sounding in the midrange and tweeter. I will be comparing them again when I finish this new mod. and move stuff around. I will soon bring this 288,805,JBL,ALk version into the other room and A,B it with the stock AK-3 Klipschorn. I'll let you know what I think. I'm sorry to say, but I think this mod will also sound much better then the the AK-3. There is really that big of a difference between it and the AK-2 Klipschorn. I wouldn't be raising my false corners to fit this taller speaker and building new tops if it wasn't. Don't get me wrong, I like the stock Klipschorn sound. I have had one pair of these 288 drivers and 805B horns for about for about two years now and found no need to make the change. It was after helping Mike Linsey with his horn change that I decided that it was time. When he comes over he is like a kid in a candy store. Runs around the house looking at and touching everything. I couldn't help but to let him demo and A,B some of my bass horns, even if it is a lot of work moving them around and setting things up. That is why he had to come back a few times, you just can't do it in one day. The last time we played around with some different mid range horns and drivers I decided that it was time to make a change. I was just liking what I was hearing too much. I wouldn't have been able to do it without Al's network. His network allowed me to lower the volume of the 288. I must say your right, you just don't realize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 Jim, I emailed you the drawing, so let me know if you didn't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Q-man Thank you very much, i have the E-mail saved! Hey buddy, now you can have fun with the bass bins, im not sure, but with a top end that extreeme, you might just want to try to build a bass bin using the altec 416 woofers! That is of coarse, if your thinking of buildng a separate speaker, than the Klipschorn! I myself have really been looking at the industrial VOTs lol, oh no not again LOL! These look to be bigger than the k-horns? Anyway, thank you again, wish i was there to hear it! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nategr8d8 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Well if you love the 805B's you will love the Western Electric 15A horns. This one is on Ebay for a "Buy it now" of over $17,000.00. Put this one in the living room and find out if your wife really loves you! Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nategr8d8 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 The mouth of the beast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nategr8d8 Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Sideview..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Where are the updates? I have been following this thread with great interest. Please continue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 There arn't any new pictures yet, because I'm still not sure if I'm going to finish these Altec tops for the Klipschorn. I'm still struggling with the Altec drivers, horn and network mods. It turns out that the Altec driver that I was using for the measurements had an 8 ohm diaphragm in it. This makes it 3db louder then the 16 ohm diaphragms that the other three drivers have. Good old ebay buying. I just got the 8 ohm one to a point that I might be able to live with, then I tried out the other drivers and found out the mistake. The last two weeks I've been trying to do the same with the correct 16 ohm drivers. The 16 ohm drivers are the ones that I should use with the Klipsch networks, because the K55 is a 16 ohm driver. I don't like the 16 ohm driver as well as the 8 ohm. For some reason I can balance the 8 ohm better with a modified AA network then I can the 16 ohm driver. The ALK network can adjust for both drivers, but the AA gives me a slightly better 400 & 500 hz. output with the 8 ohm driver. I'm going to try the 8 ohm driver again. I also found a guy at Great Plains Audio that bought the tooling from Altec when they closed up shop. He repairs, makes and sells some of these drivers and diaphragms. He has a few ideas and I can buy diaphragms from him if and when I decide which way I want to go. After this past weekend I might give up on using the Altec driver and 805B horn with the Klipschorn. I know of one and maybe two guys using this combo with thier Klipschorns and I can understand why thay are doing it. This is a beautiful sounding driver and horn. BUT!, I don't like it's SPL output at 400 and 500Hz. Maybe I'm being too fussy. I may sink a little more money into this project and order a Selemium 400Hz bi-radial horn and see what that does to the driver. This horn should load the driver at 400Hz. and I might get a little more from it in this range. Altec did make some 300 & 400 Hz. horns , but they are really huge. The Klipschorn bass horn doesn't have good out put at or above 400Hz. The K55/400 is doing it all, thus the Altec 500Hz. network didn't help. I still need to try this Altec combo on my Imperial. That might be a match made in heaven, since the Imperial back loaded bass horn is good to 600Hz. The problem here is that the Imperial horn is taller then the Klipschorn base horn with it's top attached. Placing the 805 horn on top of the Imperial would make it about 76" tall. Worst case is that I'll throw away the tops that I built for the Altec horns and use the University Cobreflex horn with the K55. The Cobreflex sounded better then the 400. I'm not ready to give up yet, I have a few more ideas to try first. I want to use the Altec combo in the worst way. Remember those comments on how it made the Klipschorn sound like it was stuffed with pillows? There is no perfect speaker! Horn Ed, If your reading this, I may have found an acre lot on this darn island. If so, maybe that home theater room will become a reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Qman---If you like the 288-multis so much you should consider using them properly with Altec bassbins. Build or buy Altec 825-828 VOT cabinets and put 515 woofers in them. Then with the 288s you'll have A5s. Use the Khorn bassbins as subs below 100hz. In the range between 100 and 500 the A5s are straight horn loaded, no folds, and will sound much nicer than Khorns, in my opinion of course. Indeed I'm of the opinion that the 515B woofer in the 825 cabinet is the absolutely finest reproducer of upper bass and lower midrange known to man. But they're weak down low, keep the Khorns for subs, yes indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Tom, I'll look into that cabinet, I think I have some drawings of it somewhere. Have you ever heard the Altec 290? It has a rated 300Hz xover frequency. This driver will require one of those huge altec horns that I was talking about. One of the horns is the 329A, I'm being told that it is the best sounding horn that Altec ever made. There was a pair on ebay the other day and bidding was near $700.00. A pair sold for over $800.00 a while back. Were talking about 33" wide and 28" deep. Then you need to add the 290 which is about 9" deep. Then there is the 804B some 6" deeper then the 805B. Fun, Fun, Fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 OH BOY This is getting fun, watching you go thru this, using drivers i could never afford to try LOL! I think i sent you a picture of the Bigger industrial VOTS, i have one if you want it, these are what id love to have, i think there bigger than the Klipschorns, although i dont think they might have the bass! I havent heard from Mike, is he still on to his 511b K-55-v mod, or did he change it? Q- i do wonder how the Altec woofers would perform in the k-horn bass bins? Although im not modding, i do wonder? Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndH Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Q-Man, I changed only the horn of my klipschorns and ran into little trouble. DJK helped me with an additional filter network for my AA network and that solved the probs. When i see how many variables you are changing, i will call you PWK jun. when you finish sucessfull. Tom, Why build a second pair of tall bass-bins when only use above 100 Hz. Don't you think a smaller JBL 4512 or Altec 816 bin can do this job? Bernd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 BernD----Yes, I think the Altec 816s would do the job if used with Khorn bassbins below 100hz or so, perhaps 150hz, I think they'd do well indeed. I had my 825s built thinking I'd use 803A woofers (A7), these go deeper in the bass than A5s. But the A5 midrange is so glorious I had to go with it despite the lack of lower bass which I augmented anyway with a pair of JBL 4648s. The JBL 4560 cabinet also sounds very good with Altec 515Bs and is a little smaller than the 825, there are zillions of 4560s out there and they can clean up real nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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