NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 BTW, you never answered my question from a couple weeks ago when I pointed out that you agree caps sound different, and all we are talking here is construction material!! You can have two caps with identical values -- and they sound different when you put them in the circuit -- what's up with that? Yet, I can't get you to agree that if you put a wire in a circuit, with measurable electrical differences -- that it will change up the sound. I never said wire can't make a difference I said it shouldn't be the place to be making difference if it does then something is wrong !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Hee hee, not the response I was hoping for. I gambled and lost. I used to drive a small block Chevelle with a four bolt main that I couldn't tach out past 4500 without Ford plugs. I never did figure it out. Maybe it was the wires Check this out: This is the Monster 'Z' cable inside the RF-7. I think it's 6 strands of 28 AWG solid core and some stranded which wraps around the twisted solid core wires. Aggragate, it's 12 AWG. What's the point in this? Would you believe taking advantage of 'Skin Effect'. Is Skin Effect a big deal? Is it even real? I found the below in an article about lightning. Hey, it's not even about cables! "The reason that a person is safe inside a metal car during a thunderstorm (or in the operators cage in our theater) is not, as many assume, because the metal container forms a Faraday cage but because of something known as the skin effect. A Faraday cage only works with static electricity (the storage spheres on top of our Van De Graaff are Faraday cages.) What happens there is that the negative charges on a Faraday cage repel each other and try to get as far away from each other as possible. The best way to do that is to occupy only the outside of the cage. Hence there is no electricity on the inside. When a lightning bolt hits, however, the electricity is not static--it is moving very rapidly! Some other effect must be at work. Lightning is an example of a very high frequency alternating current. This may seem illogical as the electricity in a lightning bolt normally only moves down, but looking at the current/time diagrams below will show that it is more like a short piece of alternating current than direct current. All electric currents generate magnetic fields that in turn can affect the current (this is the principle behind electric guitar pickups). In a direct current case everything is constant and so nothing seems to happen. With an alternating current, however, there is a delay in the magnetic field's response to the change in current and the 'old' magnetic field tends to push the current towards the outside of the conductor. As the frequency increases, so does the effect until at very high frequencies the entire current flows in a very narrow skin on the conductor--hence the name. The earliest work on explaining the skin effect was done by Lord Kelvin (of temperature fame) in 1887. Tesla also investigated the effect." So what is Monster trying to pull off here? Simple. As the frequencies climb, the associate current also begins to climb to the surface, or outside of the conductor. So, the lower frequencies ride along the solid core wires, and the highs ride on the stranded! Below is a great site. I hope you all enjoy it as much as I have. Good luck! http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2003 Author Share Posted January 17, 2003 Whoa, posts while I'm typing -- tough to keep up. Craig, are you pissed at me? Yeah, maybe I missed your point -- sorry. Sometimes phones are better! I get what you are saying now -- and I do agree with you to a point. "What I said is faults in your system should not be corrected by speaker cables what you want is total tranparency." But I never said cables are being used to correct faults in a system, I'm only saying some cables work better in some systems than others -- just like certain preamps work better with some amps, etc. I mean, it's all about finding what sounds best, right? Now, about the high capacitance of the Goertz, and "why bother making it". Remember, the problem only occurs in solid state amps employing a design that does not account for this effect. Some could argue that these amps are 'unstable', and contain a design flaw ( I just made that up -- I have no idea:) Check out the chart. http://www.alphacore.com/mifaq.html#phys Prodj101-- why would Klipsch be upset? The cable they are using is light years ahead of what most are using. Actually, I think it's a nifty design. Also, don't be deceived by the thickness of the wire as you see it in the picture. Don't think in terms of 'thick' and 'thin', but rather, think about the amount of copper in the wire! Most of this wire is solid core, and so is pretty dense. This 'thin' wire is 12 AWG. Now, 12 AWG stranded looks 'thick', because there are hundreds of air gaps between strands, which 'fluff' the cable up. The RF7 is a beautiful, well built speaker. In spite of me wanting to change a few things -- it's still one of the best speakers I have ever heard. Klipsch should be proud, and I'm proud to own them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 what ?! my posts keep disappearing into thin air. Anyone else get logged off by the website ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2003 Share Posted January 17, 2003 Michael, No its just you !! The Klipsch ninga turtles have invaded your Klipsch cookie !! LOL !! Dean, I'm not madd at all !! If you want to spend endless hours questing after the prefectly matching cables have at it ! I will spend my hours tweaking my amps and sources. If I was going to venture into the cable rolling I would go for interconnects I believe there more important than the speaker cable. But let me say it again I'm not going there with either option I like my system just the way it is. I'll roll amps and sources. There easier to sell !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolin Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hello Dean, Is that all the stuffing Klipsch uses in the back there? or have you been experementing here as well? Can you (or anyone else) comment on the quality of the caps used in the crossover? My RF-3 crossovers look identical exept for there is an extra large black cap(probably because you can biamp the RF-7s ?) Do you think there is a major improvement in the tweeter compared to the RF-3s. As a frequent reader here i know you had the RB-5s you were very happy about whitch has the same tweeter. Im not talking in the cross over area (i know there is a subjective "hole in the responce" around there )but more in the upper frequencies? I can imagine its hard to say because your all into tubes these days and probably have not heard the RB-5s on good tubes yet? Thanks for the info. Collin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Is it Coolin' Yankee or Collin Yankee? heh.... Nah...just kiddin' kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2003 Author Share Posted January 18, 2003 "Is that all the stuffing Klipsch uses in the back there?" Yep, that's it. Hey, it's more than the Thiels use, for they use none. Many good speakers avoid damping the cabinet, which typically kills dynamics. Cabinet resonances can be corrected in the crossover. No biggie. "Can you (or anyone else) comment on the quality of the caps used in the crossover?" It's not good to make comments about parts, because it's not just the parts, but the implemenation of the parts. 'Better' caps might actually make a speaker sound worse. A speaker is 'voiced' with the parts employed, and changing out those parts with other parts, will actually change the signature of the speaker somewhat.. So, I might smooth out my highs some, but at the same time I might bring them forward too much. It's a gamble. Right now, I'm leaning towards REL PPMFX for the two non-critical caps, and Jensen PIO's. I will experiment with resistor values to bring everything back in line. "My RF-3 crossovers look identical exept for there is an extra large black cap(probably because you can biamp the RF-7s ?)" I don't really understand what you are saying here. Both the RF-3 and RF-7 can be biamped or biwired. It's hard telling what the extra cap is doing without the schematic (at least, for me). "Do you think there is a major improvement in the tweeter compared to the RF-3s." Yes. A major increase in performance in all areas (dynamics, low level detail, and extension). I'm sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolin Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Dean, Sorry, i didnt read about your son till now. I hope he pulls through. I dont think there much correctioning going on here with these basic cross-overs... When do you think youll be experementing with the caps? Do you know what kind of caps are used now? Do you have the values, only one of mine had something printed on it i think. Could you tell me the resistor value for the tweeter, i might someday want to try it on my RF-3s. Im using a few ohms to bring it down at the moment to bring it more in ballance. They are far from the back wall. I don't really understand what you are saying here. Both the RF-3 and RF-7 can be biamped or biwired. It's hard telling what the extra cap is doing without the schematic (at least, for me). Yours are fully split, mine are on one board if that makes an electrical difference? Yes. A major increase in performance in all areas (dynamics, low level detail, and extension). I'm sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear. ---------------- No, however i didnt mention that i have extended my horns and i could cut and paste your coments about the improvements exept for maybe the extention part. And im not kidding I wonder how much of an improvement there really could be left. Collin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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