Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 This should probably go in Odds and Mods -- oh well, more fun here. Nice shot of inside the RF-7. They veneer both sides of the MDF to control warpage. Nice touch. Sufficient bracing as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo357 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Dean- Please let us know what you think about the new wiring. Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Crossover disassembled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Dean, I can't believe your tearing apart those 2K speakers to change the wiring !! You must be really bored ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Anything but bored, as a matter of fact -- I've got more to do than I dare think about. I need to leave for the hospital soon, and I use this hobby as therapy. You actually think I tore these down just so I can change the wiring? You don't know me as well as you think you do. The cable inside the RF-7 is fine. OFC copper stranded. However, I've decided solid core delivers a better overall sound with the RF-7 -- at least in my system. I'm leaning towards using either some Goertz 14 AWG, or the Cardas Litz magnet wire from Percy. There will be no clips, either to the drivers, or the binding posts -- all connections will be soldered with Cardas solder. Binding posts will be replaced. The new cables will have Rhodium plated spades. I will probably replace the binding posts with Rhodium plated Cardas posts, an then solder the connections from the crossover directly to the new posts. I believe connections that are not soldered, should be of like base metal and plating if possible. I won't solder the crossover leads to the binding posts initially, because I want to make some changes on the crossover board. I need to have extensive dialogue with Leo first however. My RF-7's are now officially shut down. Craig, it's not really about the extra 2%. I wish you spend some time at the Alpa-Core, Analysis Plus, and Cardas sites. It can't ALL be voodoo. Besides -- I'm hearing things over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Dean, You can read all you want and hear all you want ! But I for one am not falling into the endless wire quest life is way to short to search after that 2% that you KNOW your searching for !!! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 It's not an 'endless' quest, and remember, you're not running SET. SET amps have somewhat higher output impedances as compared to other tube amps. What to use is in the math, and you know how well I know math. At LEAST give some inexpensive solid core a try. Hell, just go to Home Depot and get a spool for your Scalas. If you can afford just a little bit more -- get some Audioquest Type 2. I'm telling you -- it'll sound better. Stranded cable ain't got no business being on a horn. It's not about the 2%. It's about smoothing out the 100% you got. I'll tell you what. I don't know how long your runs are, but 10 feet of this stuff is $50.00 -- terminated. Here's a deal: Order it and put it in. If you can't tell a difference, or don't like the way it sounds -- I'll buy it from you at the full price you paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I would rather just have you buy it and put it together ship it up here and than if I like it I'll pay for it !! Here is what PWK thinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 I wonder how PK would have answered this question. If cables do not make a difference electrically or sonically -- then how can the following scenario take place? I hear that GOERTZ speaker cables have a high capacitance. How will this affect my system ? Low impedance, matched speaker cables represent the ideal path from the amplifier to a loudspeaker but in rare cases may cause small percentage of solid state amplifiers to become unstable when combined with certain speakers. The symptom is audible oscillation or overload shutdown. Fortunately the problem is easily solved, by installing an Alpha-Core RC link across the terminals of each speaker. A pair of RC links is provided free of charge with our ultra low impedance GOERTZ and Serpent series cables.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /> The advantage of the low impedance, matched path is that the amplifier is rendered able to exert control and damping of voice coil resonance, and all frequency bands are transferred with the same interrelated magnitude irrespective of cable length. This also means that the cables to the left and right channels of a stereo system can be of unequal length if desired, largely without ill effects. Read on for full technical explanation: The impedance of voice coils in dynamic loudspeakers and their crossover networks rises with frequency, causing a corresponding decrease in audio output at high frequencies. At low audio frequencies a voice coil behaves almost like a purely resistive load but at for example 20 kHz its impedance may rise to more than 10 times the DC resistance. This is mainly due to self-inductance, which causes the almost purely inductive impedance to rise even further above 20 kHz. Unfortunately the feedback loop in certain solid state amplifiers does not satisfy the Nyquist or Bode criterion for stability. The amplifier may at times exhibit gain band widths in the internal feedback loop in the megaHertz order, meaning that things may start happening above the audible range. The problem arises when this type of amplifier is connected with loudspeakers that exhibit high impedance at high frequencies, via an otherwise ideal low impedance matched cable. Under certain circumstances, instead of stabilizing the gain via the internal feedback loop as intended for a low impedance output, the amplifier is turned into a HF power oscillator operating at a frequency well above the audible range. This may load the amplifier excessively, resulting in higher than normal operating temperature or overload shutdown. Our remedy is to place a resistive load across the speaker terminals, which becomes effective at frequencies well above the audible range. Tests have shown that a 0.1 microfarad capacitor in series with a 10 ohm resistor will do the trick if applied across the speaker terminals. The combination RC Link also called a Zobel network, is supplied free of charge by Alpha-Core to be applied when needed. A simple calculation shows the impedance of the RC link to be 14 ohms at 159kHz, amply illustrating that they in no way affect performance at audio frequencies. Incidentally, the situation described in the above does not occur with electrostatic speakers or with tube amplifiers containing output transformers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 Strange counter-offer. Why should I buy the cables, I just bought some. You're the one that needs the cables -- you buy them. If you don't like them -- I'll take care of business just like I said. Uh...unless of course your runs are like a 100 feet or something. How long are your runs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 I posted Hotwired a long long time ago, before to long i was the BB idiot LOL I do have 12 guage inside the bass bins on my k-honrs, i never did stop the inside wiring mods! Regards Jim Hey Dean, replace every wire in a tube amp, see if theres a difference. heck why not LOL Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 My gear is all wired with Kimber silver cable and solder. Besides, I'm going after impedance matching between components and speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cornell Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Excellent idea, itll be nice, i know it! Regards Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Deang, No I that is where your wrong ! I don't need the cables and that is why I'm not going to buy them. I will stick by my theory speaker wire and cable has a job. The job is to pass the signal untouched tO the speakers, amp or preamp. The difference you hear in these cables is there ability to alter the sound as the signal passes through them. I myself would rather make my Amp , Preamp or speakers do there job properly then have my cables do it. Besides I am completely and utterly happy with my system. I listen to it this time of year on average of 12 hours a day and it never tires me in the least. It sounds simply amazing !! Maybe it could sound better but to me I'm completely satisfied any improvement in speaker wire or inter connects is going to be marginal at best. Craig Oh and PWK would say what a sales pitch !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Oh my runs are 10' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holiday Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 i for one am i firm believer in the quest for that 2%, i have rewired most of my speakers and the improvement is amazing. I had a pair of kg2.2's and when i rewired those the difference was amazing......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 16, 2003 Author Share Posted January 16, 2003 "No I that is where your wrong ! I don't need the cables and that is why I'm not going to buy them." I was just giving you a hard time, sorry if I came off like an a$$hole. I just wanted you to give it a whirl, and if you came back with a "bull$hit", I would take them off of your hands. "I will stick by my theory speaker wire and cable has a job. The job is to pass the signal untouched to the speakers, amp or preamp. The difference you hear in these cables is there ability to alter the sound as the signal passes through them." It is impossible for a cable to pass a signal "untouched". Differences in wire are measurable, and the measurable differences influence the behavior of the electrical field as it's advanced by the vibration of the electrons. This is the reason I hear differences between the cables I've used in the last two weeks. What I don't understand about your second statement is that it sounds like you are saying your cables don't mess with the signal -- but mine do. I don't get it. I've only got one fancy set of cables over here (the Music Metre Silvers), everything else I have been using is pretty el cheapo. Radio Shack Mega cable (flat, twisted braid), my old MIT 4's (about $80 for the pair), Tributaries (12 gauge OFC stranded), homebrew Radio Shack Coax (solid core with PE foam), and 20 gauge magnet wire from one of my DQ inductors. With the exception of the Silvers, everything I'm using is basic old fashioned copper -- and they all sound different. The point here is that ALL cables alter the signal somewhat because of difference in their values. BTW, you never answered my question from a couple weeks ago when I pointed out that you agree caps sound different, and all we are talking here is construction material!! You can have two caps with identical values -- and they sound different when you put them in the circuit -- what's up with that? Yet, I can't get you to agree that if you put a wire in a circuit, with measurable electrical differences -- that it will change up the sound. "I myself would rather make my Amp , Preamp or speakers do there job properly then have my cables do it." Ideally, you wan't everything working together in some kind of synergistic fashion. No component is sonically perfect, even if it's electrically sound. I want my amp and preamp to do their job right too, but I bet I can change caps and resistors types and change up the sound -- and though they will still be doing their job properly -- they will sound different. Why? "Besides I am completely and utterly happy with my system. I listen to it this time of year on average of 12 hours a day and it never tires me in the least." Well sure, I'm happy with mine too. No matter what I change in the system -- whether amp, preamp, CD players, cables, whatever -- the RF7's always sound good to me. But some things do sound better to me than others. I'm saying the major components give you the overall signature, and cables can be used to dial things in. So, what kind of plugs does your Camaro favor? Did it run the same no matter which plug you used? Bet not. As far as the sales pitch -- that wasn't a sales pitch, but an explanation of why the Goertz cables might present a problem for some solid state amps, and what the solution is. The problem with high capacitance cables and the resulting oscillations in some amps is completely verified. It's not made up, but demonstratable and proven. My question to you was, if all cables are basically the same -- why would this happen? Hey, this is tough on me too, it was easier when I thought it was B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Dean, actually with heavy doses of NOS plugs really don't matter as long as the heat range is right . I tried 99 cent plugs and $10 the difference was nothing at all !!! Same with Spark Plug wires tried them all and the only difference was how long they would last not in how fast the car would go !! Its just like the litteral 100s of guys I took money from that had motors with 100 to 200 cubic inch advantage with all the good parts and still lost to me. Its not the bucks you spend its how you spend them !! The same aplies in all hobbies !!! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 hey dean, interesting pictures. I always thought that the z series in the speakers would be of the thicker sort like the kind you buy at good guys or audio king. alot thinner than I expected. I bet klipsch isn't particularly happy about this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 16, 2003 Share Posted January 16, 2003 Oh and to your question. Read what I say. I don't say that all cables are the same and I never said that they won't make a difference. What I said is faults in your system should not be corrected by speaker cables what you want is total tranparency. As if they are never there !! So you can truely hear what your system is doing and correct as needed. If a cable has such a high competence that it causes any amp to Oscilate is just redicules !! Why even bother producing it ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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