Cornwall 4 vs Lascala AL-5

[Flevoman]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:41 PM, Flevoman said:

Moving the CW4 is really too much hassle. I could throw a thick rug over it if that's advisable. But I can't and don't want to drag them back and forth.

 

By now, I know myself well enough to know that I need time to adjust to any change in my system. Only later do I realize that I will come to appreciate the adjustment. Unfortunately, it seems I have a difficult musical brain 🙄. Knowing this, I don't want to say too much about my first impression, as there's a good chance it will be completely different in two weeks.

However.... 😌, with that in mind, if I can tentatively provide an initial reaction based on how I currently experience the LaScala, I prefer the CW4 for now. I hope it's due to my combination of components, still finding the right positions, etc... but I find the sound quite dark, which is contradictory to say because it does sound dynamically and detailed. However, I have this urge to pull a kind of cover off the speakers to make it sound light and open again.

The placement of vocals and instruments is currently less precise compared to the CW4. This will probably improve with some shifting and experimenting, as it took a while for everything to fall into place with the CW4.

I miss the bass less than I expected, but on some songs that I know well on the CW4, I find the LaScala sounding somewhat weak. I sincerely hope I can get it right because I can hear that the LaScala has a lot of potential.

On TIDAL, I've come across a few songs that sounded incredibly tight and dynamic. The CW4 could never achieve that.

 

Now, six months later, I would like to share my final findings regarding my initial question about the differences between the CW4 and the AL-5. I'm doing this mainly for those who, like me back then, can find very little information about user experiences when facing this choice.

After months of listening to the AL-5, I decided to reconnect the CW4. My brother wanted to take them over, so I had one last weekend with my old love, giving me a final chance to see if I still feel the same as when I switched from CW4 to AL-5. Initially, I had some issues with the LaScala AL-5 and seriously questioned whether I wanted to keep it or if the CW4 sounded better. Now, after months of adjusting placement, getting used to it, and trying various amplifiers, I've finally got the sound to a point where I'm almost entirely satisfied with the AL-5. I truly enjoy music for hours every day. Nevertheless, the AL-5 is still a challenging speaker to make it sound entirely satisfying.

 

Anyway, the CW4 has been playing all weekend, allowing me to compare CW4 vs. AL-5 again. The first thing I noticed was a fuller and deeper bass. The bass also sounded warmer than the LaScala. Even though the LaScala's supposedly less prominent bass was a major point of criticism, I personally prefer its bass. I'd rather sacrifice a bit of depth for a punchier, drier, and more realistic sound. What quickly caught my attention was the midrange. It was noticeably smaller, with voices seeming to have less body. From a song I know well on the LaScala, where the piano is prominent, it sounded noticeably smaller and more in the background on the CW4. The dynamics are there, and it sounds good, but I miss the body and presence of the piano in the song. Another example is the kick drum. On the LaScala, it has impactful fullness—you hear a real thud. On the CW4, you hear the kick, it sounds dynamic, but lacks body, losing some of its strength and impact. It blends more into the song, while on the LaScala, a kick drum can be really present. However, the CW4 does sound a bit fresher. Perhaps it's due to the slightly smaller midrange, giving more space to the highs. But with the CW4, the emphasis is more on the low and high frequencies, while with the LaScala, it's more around the midrange (which is my preference). With the LaScala, I sometimes feel like I can almost look into the singer's throat. I don't get that feeling with the CW4. I think the CW4 sounds more like a modern speaker, and the AL-5 has a bit more of a vintage feel. Even though the CW4 sounds really good, I've been missing something all weekend... just that touch of dynamics, the satisfying thud or strike, a bit less body in the vocals, sax, or piano... I feel slightly less connected to the music. The LaScala opens the door just a bit wider.

 

Even though I can understand why some might prefer the CW4 (it might also depend on your music taste), I'm quite happy with the LaScala. Even if it's not perfect, I have a certain distortion/resonance on certain frequencies in some songs, which I'm still trying to figure out if it's due to placement, acoustics, the speaker, or a combination of everything. Still, the LaScala does something incredibly well—the live experience, the connection, the dynamics... I get pulled into the music.

In the end, the CW4 is now with my brother, who, like me back then, is very happy with it. But my preference now definitely goes to the LaScala. It's interesting what I've learned with this switch from LaScala to CW4, how significant the influence of familiarity is. When I had listened to the CW4 for a year and then heard the AL-5 for the first time in my living room, I had a hard time with the slightly less fresh sound. I found the LaScala somewhat darker, which was a reason for me to prefer the CW4 (despite the positive aspects I could clearly hear with the AL-5). Now, after listening to the AL-5 for six months, having refreshed the sound with a different amplifier, I find the CW4 to be quite sharp at times in the highs and sounding thin in the midrange. I listened to the CW4 for three days, but my old love for the CW4 has disappeared. I was completely happy again when I could reconnect the AL-5 and immediately heard what I missed with the CW4 and what makes the LaScala such a delightful speaker. Even though the CW4 has a bit more sparkle, a fuller and deeper bass, I find the AL-5 much more pleasant and grander. It's a learning moment for me—apparently, I need a bit more time with these changes to give a coherent judgment.

[Troll]

Yep, to me it’s the AL5 midrange.  Bass interferes with voice intelligibility and I can easily fix it either way by fiddling with bass and sub boost, depending on the movie or music.  I am unable to improve intelligibility on some other brand speakers I might add.  In a similar fashion my ear was trained to Chorus which are now my surrounds and I still love to hear them do their thing because the horn shape is different.  But the AL5 midrange horn and the natural bass are magical.  The tweeter adds just the missing touch without, as you say, sounding “modern”.  Modern to me is the smile curve with the scooped out midrange and pianos generally sound hollow on speakers with that curve/eq to me.  One might need to have played and stood next to a piano for years to know the difference however. If you enjoy the style try some latest releases of Yello to exercise those AL5s.  Guests looked around the room surprised to see if other people were present because the voice sounded so natural from the AL5s. 

[Flevoman]

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[Flevoman]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:42 PM, Stephen Buck said:

There IS no proper position.  Recording engineers don’t place those instruments in 2 channel.  That’s just an artifact of rooms and speaker design.  If you get used to the saxophone of a particular recording at +6,+3 X,Y axis where 0,0 is dead center from listening position, just know that no recording engineer expects that.  They know that lots of speakers image differently and they test recordings on a variety, using hardware and software.  No artist “intended” it to be at +6,+3.  Just saying for clarity.  Enjoy the art of reproduction!  Artists love to hear their songs on different systems, none being right or wrong. 

I only saw your responses today, and I found this one particularly interesting; I wasn't aware of this. I had thought that the technicians during assembly actually determined where approximately the instruments or vocals would be placed. So, if I understand you correctly, the positioning, like having vocals nicely in the center, bass on one side, percussion on the other, etc., has nothing to do with the final production of the song but more with the combination of your audio setup and the room?

[Troll]

51 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

I only saw your responses today, and I found this one particularly interesting; I wasn't aware of this. I had thought that the technicians during assembly actually determined where approximately the instruments or vocals would be placed. So, if I understand you correctly, the positioning, like having vocals nicely in the center, bass on one side, percussion on the other, etc., has nothing to do with the final production of the song but more with the combination of your audio setup and the room?

Yes exactly.  The mixing board can pan left and right per input channel, and the pan can be some percentage or 100% in one direction just like a balance knob on a stereo.  There is no up/down control.  Vinyl engineers have to remove stereo bass or the needle will pop out of the groove. 

 

In Atmos object-oriented mixing the panning can be output channel specific so it can seem as though you get some “height” but the reality is that height is achieved by panning between the mains and the ceiling speakers.  There are no controls that govern placement within a single speaker radiating pattern.  That’s just an artifact of the speaker.  Some people prefer speakers that radiate the same strength for every frequency in a given direction while other people want that “imaging” which actually means the speaker is not radiating all frequencies uniformly in the same direction with the same power.  Instruments don’t either I might add, so there is room for interpretation and you can play with reproduction exactly the way musicians play with their instruments.  Dave Rat has some good YouTube videos demonstrating radiation patterns to mimic live instruments. 
 

Sales people did an amazing job selling the magic of imaging.  But it was never “as the artist intended”.  That was a sales lie. 

[Troll]

1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

I only saw your responses today, and I found this one particularly interesting; I wasn't aware of this. I had thought that the technicians during assembly actually determined where approximately the instruments or vocals would be placed. So, if I understand you correctly, the positioning, like having vocals nicely in the center, bass on one side, percussion on the other, etc., has nothing to do with the final production of the song but more with the combination of your audio setup and the room?

“Imaging” can also occur in the amp and input signal where a given frequency has a notch or curve that isn’t flat.  So if a speaker plays true the rest of the rig might not be playing true.  But disregard “true” as the constant listening goal.  It’s just a way to measure.  I have drawers full of artists I wish I could EQ and have my system remember next time it’s played.  I’m sure if “the artist” listened to their track compared to others on my system they would agree some eq is needed and the engineer should be replaced.  But again artists have funny warped ears caused by live performance ear damage. You might not want what they want to hear. 

[Tom80112]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:37 AM, Flevoman said:

Now, six months later, I would like to share my final findings regarding my initial question about the differences between the CW4 and the AL-5. 

 

 

What fantastic summary Flevoman.     I have 3 questions if you could give your advise..

 

a.  What was the make/model of the initial tube amp you were using that wasn't the best match for the AL-5?

b.  What was the make/model of the of the tube amp that allowed you to really connect with the AL-5?

c.  My room is 4M wide and 9.5M deep.  It's a flat with Kitchen/Dining/Living room all part of a long open room.

     From my sitting position to the front wall is 3.45M so the AL-5's depth + distance from the wall would subtract

     from 3.45M.   I am guessing that leaves 2.4M to 2.6M listening distance depending on how far away from the

     front wall the AL-5 needs to be.  Would AL-5 work in this sized room or would CW4 be a better match for the

     room size ?  

  

Thanks for sharing your insights for the AL-5 vs CW4.  At the start of the post it seemed like the CW4 had the win. 

[Troll]

8 hours ago, Tom80112 said:

 

What fantastic summary Flevoman.     I have 3 questions if you could give your advise..

 

a.  What was the make/model of the initial tube amp you were using that wasn't the best match for the AL-5?

b.  What was the make/model of the of the tube amp that allowed you to really connect with the AL-5?

c.  My room is 4M wide and 9.5M deep.  It's a flat with Kitchen/Dining/Living room all part of a long open room.

     From my sitting position to the front wall is 3.45M so the AL-5's depth + distance from the wall would subtract

     from 3.45M.   I am guessing that leaves 2.4M to 2.6M listening distance depending on how far away from the

     front wall the AL-5 needs to be.  Would AL-5 work in this sized room or would CW4 be a better match for the

     room size ?  

  

Thanks for sharing your insights for the AL-5 vs CW4.  At the start of the post it seemed like the CW4 had the win. 

Great question if you don’t mind I chime in too.  There’s a video from chief bonehead about the best sound comes from big horns in small rooms.  The horn-loaded woofer in the AL5, in a small room at low volume is going to be impactful.  But the front vented enclosure of the Cornwall will too and will sound deeper than AL5.  The physics of the two designs can mean there is a difference in bass delay and how it interacts with the room.  If you’re a low sound level bass head I’d go with Cornwall by itself, or al5 with the latest large klipsch subwoofer (what I run).  I’m on wood pier and beam and it rumbles the couch which is fun for movies and high dynamic range music.  The Cornwall and AL5 midrange horns are different and they sound quite different.  It takes some listening to learn what you are hearing and missing in both designs.  The AL5 is HUGE, refrigerator huge, but the bass bin is architecturally significant and really adds to a room in my opinion.  Andrew Robinson thought they were too big for his space before he moved but I thought they looked rockstar cool and his acting skills tipped me over to choose the AL5.  What I didn’t quite understand until I unplugged the separate pieces and played them independently was that most of the sound I pay attention to comes from the bass bin and it plays quite high. The top piece when played by itself literally sounds like an AM radio and makes me laugh when I hear it.  So a ton of sound, I’d say most of the character and quality comes from the 15” driver.  If you want dynamic punch in the mid bass the AL5 is going to hit you.  But the Cornwall hits too, just in a less direct way. I’ve lived with Chorus for decades that has front vents like Cornwall but taller.  Chorus has super tight bass but a little indirect compared to AL5 until you get to concert levels.  The cabinet tuning is what makes me grin every time I’m jamming with the AL5s, while my chorus now fill role of surrounds because they are tall enough to reach over the side of the couch, and participate in all channel stereo.  My experience with tubes on klipsch is they hit harder in mid bass but roll off both sub bass and high frequencies which makes them sound “sweeter” to some ears.  A tube amp needs a big power reserve to push the bass properly at low volume.  Sound reinforcement can be tricky business though…you’d get closer to what chief bonehead says on a budget with 4 Cornwalls than 2 AL5s, because at the end of the day, the more 15” drivers in a room will give you more impactful sound pressure at low volume, something you will feel and is listenable without running you out of the room.  With 4 Cornwalls you’ll still use less floor space than 2 AL5s.  In your shoes I’m not sure what I would choose!  To me there is the physics versus the architectural look competing in my head on a given budget and available floor space.  The horns have the directivity to slice through the bass waves which normally interferes with high frequencies so intelligibility is not sacrificed.  Have fun!!!

[Flevoman]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:33 AM, Tom80112 said:

 

What fantastic summary Flevoman.     I have 3 questions if you could give your advise..

 

a.  What was the make/model of the initial tube amp you were using that wasn't the best match for the AL-5?

b.  What was the make/model of the of the tube amp that allowed you to really connect with the AL-5?

c.  My room is 4M wide and 9.5M deep.  It's a flat with Kitchen/Dining/Living room all part of a long open room.

     From my sitting position to the front wall is 3.45M so the AL-5's depth + distance from the wall would subtract

     from 3.45M.   I am guessing that leaves 2.4M to 2.6M listening distance depending on how far away from the

     front wall the AL-5 needs to be.  Would AL-5 work in this sized room or would CW4 be a better match for the

     room size ?  

  

Thanks for sharing your insights for the AL-5 vs CW4.  At the start of the post it seemed like the CW4 had the win. 

Sorry, I just noticed your questions. I probably overlooked the notification 🙄

But to answer your questions:
- Due to some acoustic issues causing a thickening around 100Hz-150Hz, the amp that is less warm in character works best for me. In my setup, I find my Melody 2A3 PP or my 45 SET to sound the most pleasing.
- See the above answer.
- Answering this question is quite challenging. I think no one can predict the acoustics of your living room. The CW4 could sound a bit boomy due to my acoustics, and the AL-5 has a kind of thickening around the 150Hz area for me. If I had to make a choice, I expect the AL-5 to pose fewer problems, but perhaps other members can provide a better answer than I can.

[Troll]

37 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Sorry, I just noticed your questions. I probably overlooked the notification 🙄

But to answer your questions:
- Due to some acoustic issues causing a thickening around 100Hz-150Hz, the amp that is less warm in character works best for me. In my setup, I find my Melody 2A3 PP or my 45 SET to sound the most pleasing.
- See the above answer.
- Answering this question is quite challenging. I think no one can predict the acoustics of your living room. The CW4 could sound a bit boomy due to my acoustics, and the AL-5 has a kind of thickening around the 150Hz area for me. If I had to make a choice, I expect the AL-5 to pose fewer problems, but perhaps other members can provide a better answer than I can.

Just to relate a bit… I was watching some YouTube hifi audio reviews last night through my AL5s (AppleTV->Yamaha RX-A8A->Yamaha C-5000->Yamaha M-5000-> AL5s).  I know, sounds crazy to listen to hifi reviews through hifi.  I have become accustomed to how many of the reviewers sound through the AL5s.  I noticed one reviewer sounded more husky and less intelligible than what I remember.  Now mind you the reason I love and live with the AL5 is exactly this mid bass effortless throw without the boomy sound I commonly hear from speakers with smaller diameter woofers.  But, a quick check on MusicCast and yep bass and sub were boosted all the way from my son watching a thriller.  So I moved them back to flat and intelligibility was restored and no more overly husky voice.  Low frequencies literally bust up higher frequencies in travel to the ear.  There’s a war in the air!
 

My point in saying this is that I read and watch a lot of people comparing the different ways amps and speakers sound as if they are “only swappable” rather than what I, studios and live performances do which is “tunable”.  If I can’t get the sound I want with bass and treble controls, or some of the other sound attenuation at the ready, I will usually realize something is not working with my levels or my PEQ configuration and I will go adjust there, select another premade or custom profile.  I will also try switching to Pure Direct to quickly rule in or out something I’ve done to modify the source material. 
 

My guess is in some rigs people don’t have these controls.  I couldn’t live without them, and in fact the other day I was playing some old CD and record source on directly connected to the C-5000 a fully balanced preamp with only bass and treble controls and I reminded myself to think about moving my sources so I could do more eq with them via the AVR, since my modern sources sound great through this chain and going into the same preamp, but the source is the output of an AVR with all the peq and adjustments wizardry that makes things sound the way I like.  In my 2-channel only-days, I remember trying a cheap equalizer and while I was able to “fix” some source material, I didn’t like the added noise in the chain, but those noise days are over with digital peq.  
 

So what I’m trying to say is that the AL5 will do what you want in your room because it is way underutilized in most day to day home use cases so it has the headroom to be altered or in your case toned down in the frequency range that is bothering you, but you may need more source controls that what a purist pre-amp+colored or uncolored amp can do.  

But I was also watching a reviewer saying that sensitive speakers like AL5  reveal everything from high powered noisy signal chains so basically all his “size matters” gear is junk with a good speaker.  Back in the old days when I was first getting into the hobby a dealer told me about noise floor and other problems caused by high power amps, even good ones.  My budget couldn’t afford a big amp anyway but he was right, in that a lower powered amp had a non-detectable noise floor and had a way of opening up the music in ways that I would later discover was lost when I replaced it with more power on the same Chorus speakers which are also high efficiency though nothing like the AL5s.  I could get more bass with the new amp (Sony) and play louder and cleaner, and I learned to adjust, but I missed the air of the low power Denon for low to moderate volume.  

 

So if your amp is for some reason not playing flat you could fix it by altering the source, ie lowering the levels of frequencies that it is boosting, as well as adjusting for the room acoustics. 
 

Luckily the artists agree and have been incorporating modern eq in their live performances to make old songs sound even better and some will remaster/re-perform old lifeless recordings.  But I do appreciate hearing my old stuff sound literally exactly the way I remember from the 80s when I want to.  That is a testament of good gear that has a clean flat signal chain.  It takes me right back to my college dorm and my room at childhood home, to my first digs as a young adult.  After a song or two, then I’m ready for the newer bigger than life sound again from a room adjusted PEQ signal chain.  However if I’m working at home and want background music I do prefer a less “in your face” presentation and will tone it down. 
 

Now that I described it, I’m going to enjoy some low flat background music while I work and hope you will too!  Oops there I go again, had to boost both bass and treble for Bush The Science of Things, for it to sound good at low volume from CD. 
 

I know half of us hifi guys will never get a self-driving car with no ability to drive ourselves.  We want the knobs. Fiddlers unite!

[Shakeydeal]

@Stephen Buck

 

You can only imagine how good those AL5s will sound once you get some good gear in front of them.

[Troll]

8 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

@Stephen Buck

 

You can only imagine how good those AL5s will sound once you get some good gear in front of them.

Bring your tubes over I will listen!

[Shakeydeal]

1 minute ago, Stephen Buck said:

Bring your tubes over I will listen!

 

Now you're talkin......

[Maggie]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:49 PM, Flevoman said:

 

My local hi-fi dealer is offering a demo pair of Lascala LA-5 speakers for sale. Although the price is not yet determined, I expect a favorable price given the fact that one speaker has a blemish on the veneer. It's something I don't mind, by the way. Next week, I will be testing some amplifiers, and I also want to listen to the Lascala as I'm really interested in it. Maybe I'll even trade in my CW4 for the Lascala AL-5.

 

Arethere people who have been able to directly compare the CW4 with the Lascala AL-5? What are your findings? Where did the Lascala excel compared to the CW4, and what might the CW4 be better at than the Lascala?

 

I listen to tube amplifiers and have a living room that is 12 meters deep and 5.5 meters wide. The speakers are positioned in the middle of the long wall. I mainly listen to organic music, jazz, blues, vocals, acoustic music, and light pop. I know that the Lascala produces less bass, and my intention is not to add a subwoofer to the system. One question I have is, even though I'm not a bass-head, whether the lack of low-end will be a problem for the type of music I listen to.

Was the dealer atubehighfidelity in Almere?

So after listening to the Lascala's.Was it worth it?

[Flevoman]

1 hour ago, Maggie said:

Was the dealer atubehighfidelity in Almere?

So after listening to the Lascala's.Was it worth it?

Yes, that's correct, that was them.
And yes, I really love the sound of the AL5!!
Unfortunately, I have a little issue around 100Hz-150Hz which makes the speaker less enjoyable. But I'm working on it and I assume this will be resolved.
Not counting this little issue, I am very happy with these speakers.

 

So I presume you are Dutch? 😉

[Maggie]

49 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Yes, that's correct, that was them.
And yes, I really love the sound of the AL5!!
Unfortunately, I have a little issue around 100Hz-150Hz which makes the speaker less enjoyable. But I'm working on it and I assume this will be resolved.
Not counting this little issue, I am very happy with these speakers.

 

So I presume you are Dutch? 😉

Yes.Visited atube a few times last year.Had a chance to listen to their Jubilees.Forgot  to listen to the Lascala's though.

[Flevoman]

@Maggie If you've already listened to the Jubilee, it's pointless to then listen to the La Scala 😄

[Maggie]

15 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

@Maggie If you've already listened to the Jubilee, it's pointless to then listen to the La Scala 😄

I don't t know.Is bigger always better? 

I live in a house.Not a theater.

Those were huge!!!

 

 

Edited February 7 by Maggie

[Flevoman]

You should actually go there and listen again. They've changed the space and improved both the acoustics and the speaker setup. Whether bigger is always better, I doubt. But the Jubilee does sound noticeably better than the AL5.

 

 

[Schu]

3 hours ago, Flevoman said:

Whether bigger is always better, I doubt.

 

 

 

There is no replacement for displacement...

 

all other things being equal, you can not mimic 'scale'...