Cornwall 4 vs Lascala AL-5

[Flevoman]

On 6/5/2023 at 12:14 PM, henry4841 said:

With a LaScala the bass is as quick and clear as the horn tweeter. You can only experience this with a bass horn system. Years ago I heard, read, of a Japanese guy that built a 32ft bass horn with concrete and steel for is house. What I would call a serious audiophile. PWK just folded the horn into 3 folds with the walls of the room being the extension of the horn. With the walls needed to create the last part of the horn I fail to see how a closed back K-horn can equal what PWK originally designed. But what do I know. I am sure the closed back K-horn will appeal to many more customers that do not have the proper room for the old K-horns. A marketing decision to create more sales? Do not get me wrong, I am sure the engineers at Klipsch have made an excellent sounding new K-horn but I fail to see how it would be better than what PWK originally made with improvements in components in driver and X-over. All things being equal. Just saying. 

Funny that you mention this. Because besides the La Scala that is for sale, there's also a possibility that I can buy someone's Khorn AK-6.
He actually just placed them against the long wall of his living room, with one side of each speaker not against a wall.
According to him, this should work fine with this latest Khorn.
Something that my hi-fi dealer also confirms.
But on the internet, I still hear/read messages that the Khorn is not intended for this.
Still, it's quite important for me to clarify this, as I would have to place them the same way if I do indeed buy the Khorn.

[henry4841]

26 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Funny that you mention this. Because besides the La Scala that is for sale, there's also a possibility that I can buy someone's Khorn AK-6.
He actually just placed them against the long wall of his living room, with one side of each speaker not against a wall.
According to him, this should work fine with this latest Khorn.
Something that my hi-fi dealer also confirms.
But on the internet, I still hear/read messages that the Khorn is not intended for this.
Still, it's quite important for me to clarify this, as I would have to place them the same way if I do indeed buy the Khorn.

I am sure the engineers have produced an excellent speaker. My PM explains my thoughts on this subject in more detail. Lucky dog being able to audition these speakers. Not so much here in the states now. 

 

This is where I wish Roy or another engineer at Klipsch would explain just how they designed the K-horn with a closed back. Would be good for forum and a good marketing tool. IMHO Klipsch could be using this forum more wisely by some participation. Just saying. 

[Flevoman]

Just a small update:

Last Saturday, I visited the high-end audio store. First, I compared the Melody PSE 300B with the Cayin SET 300B. Then, I compared the Melody PSE 300B with the same Cayin model but with WE300B tubes. Initially, I found the stock Cayin to have a rather dark sound.a bit dull. The Melody, on the other hand, was more open, fresher, and had greater dynamics. In my opinion, it was the clear winner. Even when comparing the Melody with the Cayin using the WE300B tubes, the Melody still sounded better to me. Although the WE300B tubes clearly performed noticeably better than the stock tubes, providing a more open and detailed sound.

 

Afterward, it was time to listen to the Lascala AL-5. At that moment, every upgrade was still possible: a completely different amplifier, different 300B tubes, maybe the Lascala AL-5, and perhaps even the Klipschorn AK-6 that I might be able to acquire from someone. I must admit that the listening session I had earlier with the Klipschorn AK-6 left me somewhat confused. I had expected to be more impressed by those speakers. Aside from hearing a few things that I hadn't noticed on the Cornwall 4, I wasn't really impressed. However, this might be because the person prefers a laid-back sound and has set up everything accordingly, whereas I prefer a dynamic sound and want to feel like I'm right in front of a live performance.

 

Returning to the Lascala demo, the first thing that struck me was that the sound was absolutely different from the CW4 and also different from what I had heard in the demo with the Khorn AK-6. Unfortunately, just like with the Khorn, I heard a somewhat horn-like sound in the music. The sound also had a boxy quality. This may sound contradictory because the sound also felt very open and dynamic, as if it had an even higher resolution. The placement of vocals and instruments was very tight, and some songs sounded very good. However, the lack of low-end was immediately noticeable. This demo was also somewhat confusing. I found the Lascala to sound more pleasant than the Khorn in this demo. But even with this demo, I noticed aspects in the sound that I hadn't heard with the Cornwall before. However, I found the slightly boxy and horn-like sound a bit challenging, and the thin bass took some getting used to. During the playback of one song, I was completely convinced that I absolutely had to have these speakers, but with the next song, it was like, "mehhh..."

 

I'm not sure if it's a mind game or if it really makes a difference, but when I removed the front covers from the Lascala, I immediately felt like, "Hey!!.. We're there." It suddenly sounded more open. And that's when the decision was made.

Because I'm not 100% sure if the Lascala will truly suit my taste at home, I decided to keep the CW4 and traded in my Melody MDA2. I only had to pay an additional 4000 euros (I had bought the amplifier for 5000 euros a year ago). If everything goes well, I will have the Lascala speakers at my place next Tuesday or, if not, by Saturday. I'm really excited about it and looking forward to it. I'm very curious to hear how it will sound here 😊. It will definitely take some time to get used to before I can give a proper judgment.

The cool thing is that I can compare the CW4 vs the lascala AL-5 side by side in my own livingroom. 

In the end one pair of speakers will leave, but for now I just enjoy the situation to be able to compare both speakers 😁

[OO1]

that was a damn good amplifier 

[Flevoman]

It was , but for me soundwise a bit to harsh in my set for my taste

[KT88]

Flevoman, I'm very curious about your listening impressions. It is a rare opportunity to have two such exceptional speakers in the same room at the same time. Personally, I am in the second spring with my old 1977 LaScala. Paradox is, since I brought in the Covid 19 years with much love the LS in almost original condition, diaphragm, Xover original parts etc. I hear the resonnance in the upper bass even more clearly because the „new original“ sound is so clear and pleasant. My next project is to reinforce the side panels and the top with multiplex by 6 mm and 4 mm respectively. I would leave the Lascala as it is because I value originality very much but a carpenter had sanded it down a bit on the side walls to eliminate paint that the previous owner had applied. So I go a little beyond the original thickness of the sidewalls because I have to do something anyway. This will be closer to the characteristics of the new Lascala 2 without resonances in the upper bass, even if the new one uses different material.
As has been said here, a full horn is something unique, and the LaScala with its old-school K401 still conveys the Klipsch magic and a fantastic spaciousness. 
Unfortunately, my post is not for comparison with a CW4. But I do have the comparison with my Tannoy Canterbury 15, which as some may know is also a combination of high-mid horn down to 1000 Hz and bass reflex, though almost everything is a bit different. And despite all the competencies of the Canterbury with almost a whole octave more bass range, it is in the end the LaScala that moves my heart and my bobbing foot more. I said it in another thread, the seamless connection of the bass to the K401 is simply world class. 

A word about the tweeter. I have not heard the AL5 yet. I tried other "more modern" tweeters with my old LaScala. Without expanding on that, I have ruefully returned to the original K77 alnico. If the AL5 as well as the AK6 have a newly developed tractrix tweeter then I'm sure it took Roy a few sleepless nights to realize it the way he envisioned it....a modernization while retaining the original character and with the best possible connection to the K401 exponential horn. Roy knows much better than I do that you can't just take any other tweeter. I think it is high art to design the right tweeter or to choose it. Many a good speaker has been designed from the tweeter down to the bass. Now I've digressed a bit, but I rave about these speakers.
PS 
Since yesterday I have my Underground Jubilees back in the living room after a break of a few years. This is a fantastic, breathtaking and unique speaker in its own right. If I were forced to go to the famous lonely island I would chose between the Underground Jubilee and the LaScala. Both are so impressive musical but for different reasons. The Underground Jubilee is unbeatable with its serene and at the same time powerful impulsive sound as if from one source. It is the "big block" speaker. But even here you must not deceive yourself about the bass. On the one hand, incredibly clear, fast, articulate. On the other hand, not lower than a little below 40Hz...which does not bother me. The LaScala on the other hand is just as satisfying for me in the bass for jazz, acoustic music and rock music. It is not the "big block" but it is unique how the LaScala can visually and acoustically marry with many rooms. What LS and UJ have in common is that the horn bass of both is miles ahead of any normal radiating bass in a speaker cabinet…in my view.

[Flevoman]

Great response, and I really enjoyed your impression of these speakers. Thank you for that.
But the Jubilee, wow... That's amazing.
I had the opportunity to listen to the latest Jubilee at my audio dealer, and I was extremely impressed by this speaker.
From what I heard, I think the La Scala and Klipschorn sound quite similar. But the Jubilee, it's a completely different speaker.
The sheer size of it left me awestruck, but the music sounded so delicate, airy... The level of detail...
If your Jubilee performs nearly as well as the latest Jubilee, then you truly have something incredibly beautiful.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the text, but I get the impression that your Jubilee and La Scala are on a similar level? 
If that's the case, then I'm extremely surprised. Based on what I heard, there's a world of difference between the La Scala and the Jubilee, with the Jubilee truly being the king.

Regarding the comparison between the original La Scala and the AL5.
I also had the original La Scala for a while, and I was bothered by a bothersome resonance in the low/midrange.
This issue is supposed to be absent in the AL5.
Although I'm not exactly sure what changes have been made, it seems that more than just thicker walls have been implemented in the latest AL5.
I believe there's an updated crossover filter, and perhaps different drivers or horns as well? 

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

My lascalas will be delivered tomorrow 😁

[KT88]

Flevoman, it is not so easy to put into words. The UJ are in their own class as far as sound is concerned. I really can't compare them to the LaScala in the disciplines you describe. But there is one point that I don't mean as a criticism of the UJ, but it is simply due to the size of the UJ in my view. The LaScala does not have that large and highly impressive serenity of a UJ. But in a normal living room size the LaScala does an excellent job of integrating the room. This gives that 3D effect that I love so much...in combination with the natural clear and lively horn sound. Depending on subtle fine tuning of the speaker placement, the sound in the sweet spot is very spatial and has that layer from front to back. You can say the LaSala is best suited for just one listener. The UJ sounds very good from many points in the room, you can hear (that's how I feel) the recordings with all their subtleties, very musical, with good timing and absolute resolution. And above all the airiness you describe. But to achieve the effect of marriage with the room I think the Jubilee would need a slightly larger room than mine. Now in the US many people have a larger room than I do, and for that the UJ and especially the new Heritage Jubilee is made in excellent fashion.

The unpleasant resonances of the old LaScala have actually been eliminated with much thicker MDF used today on the LS2 and AL5 side walls. I am already quite curious about your sound impressions of your soon arriving AL5!

[henry4841]

One thing caught my attention comparing the UGJ to the LaScala is the size of the room they are placed in. Like you I think a big speaker is a better suited for a big room. Most will find the LaScala to be as big as practical for an average size room without sacrificing much or anything as far as sound. 

[KT88]

22 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

One thing caught my attention comparing the UGJ to the LaScala is the size of the room they are placed in. Like you I think a big speaker is a better suited for a big room. Most will find the LaScala to be as big as practical for an average size room without sacrificing much or anything as far as sound. 

In my view, the LaScala is the smallest possibility to acquire an adequate full horn for normal rooms. With enough low frequencies for most music and as the best compromise between size and performance. Plus a bass that is excellent where it exists when there is no sidewall resonance. With the new LaScala this is always the case.

[Flevoman]

Thanks for the explanation.
I've never actually seen the Jubilee listed on Marktplaats as a used item.
I have no idea if the JU was ever sold here in the Netherlands, to be honest.
Do you have any idea how far apart your La Scalas are and how far you are from the speakers in your listening position?
Based on the photo, it seems like they are quite a distance away.

 

And yes, I'm also very curious about my first impression.
But I intentionally kept my expectations very low.
I'll give myself a week to get used to the bass, which will be less full than what I'm used to.
And then I'll probably have to do some rearranging and searching for the most ideal position for the speakers before everything falls into place.
So my first impression won't be as "first" anymore 😉.

[KT88]

The angled inside front edge of the LaScalas is about 2.80 meters and I sit about 2.70 meters away. The angled in of the LaScala is very critical and they really should be right up against the back wall. My LaScala are close to the wall with the inside back. They do not have to be in the room, they are so deep that it simultaneously brings a lot of space and the best bass when they are on the back wall. The angulation you have to try according to your taste. If the angle is too small, the stage will be wide but too flat. If the angle is too big, the feeling of spaciousness is not so good. See my photo as a starting point (if you don't want to do it completely different). Surely you can put the speakers closer together than I do. Try it out. I have the impression that the bass is better and more open when they are a bit more apart. But also not too close to the side wall because then it can drone. Just try it. Every room and every ear is different:)

 

You won't find any Underground Jubilee in Marktplaats. To my knowledge, I have the only Underground Jubilee in Germany. Roy was so kind and sent me a pair in 2008😀

I remember that another pair was in the Netherlands at a dealer (I remember that he wanted to prefer three ways but I forgot the name of the dealer) and a pair was in London at a dealer who used it to demonstrate his high end turntables. That was all in Europe.

[Flevoman]

Strange, when I look at your photos, I get the impression that the distances are much greater. But I think in terms of distance, my speaker position is about the same, only my seating position is half a meter further. The speakers will be placed in the middle of a long wall in my case. The advantage is that I have some freedom in determining how far apart they should be. Maybe the downside is that I don't have side walls that can enhance the bass a bit, resulting in a fuller low end. I can also adjust the listening position a bit, either making it larger or smaller. So, I'm fairly flexible when it comes to placement.

However, I've read a few times in reviews that for the best sound, the speakers should be positioned a bit away from the wall (I think for better soundstage). Unfortunately, this won't be possible. They are simply too deep. Maybe just about 10 cm away from the wall, but going further than that will be very difficult.

 

Well, if what you're saying is correct, then the chances of me ever coming across the Jubilee on MP are extremely slim. If you ever decide to part with them, send me a PM pls 😉.

[KT88]

As for the Lascala, they do not need to be moved away from the back wall. They are also spatial in sound when placed directly against the back wall and angled in slightly. I think the reason is that they are so deep that the midrange horn and tweeter horn are far from the back wall anyway.
Did you get the AL5 today?

[Flevoman]

Yesssss.. They're here.
And still a familiar sight, though 😄
Only now in a much more beautiful design.
If I had the choice, I would prefer Walnut. Cherry seems too red to me.
But well, demo models... and for this price (which I found very reasonable), I shouldn't complain.
I hope I can fix the veneer a bit because it's quite ugly and obvious...
Such beautiful speakers, what a shame.

I'm currently searching for the right position.
I started with them quite far apart and the intersection in front of my listening position.
But there was no soundstage at all.
Everything seemed to come only from the left and right speakers, and something was happening in the midrange and that's it. 
Now I've placed them closer together, slightly angled inward, and this seems to be a great improvement.
Not as good as I had it with the CW4, but the music feels more detached from the speakers. There's also more happening between the speakers and in the midrange.
I also put them on rubber pads, and I feel like this has a positive effect too.

[Flevoman]

[KT88]

I think the AL5s look very good in your living room. They have that coolness factor that only a few speakers offer. I agree they should not be too far apart. In my experience it can work if they are further apart but then they should be angled in more. For comparison, the Khorn is in the corners (using the same mid and high) and it works with the 45 degree angle. The way you have the AL5 set up now I would try with the angle in and go a bit over the target and then slowly go back to see where is the sweetspot of the best angle. There is a magic spot that matches your personal idea of width of the stage while projecting a focused center along with depth staging. I'm excited to see what you may report further on.

[Flevoman]

I will indeed fine-tune a bit more with toe them more or less in and perhaps bring them closer together.

There are still a lot of things to try before im done. 
What I would most like to improve for now is a tighter positioning of instruments and vocals. But above all, the hint of resonance that I hear. The sound sounds a bit boxy (I hope this sounds understandable).
Maybe this is just characteristic of these speakers, that's possible. In that case, the CW sounds fresher and more open.
But I'm still trying to find some more air around the vocals/instruments and a more open/fresh sound. Maybe through a different streamer or amplifier? 

 

[JefDC]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:40 PM, Flevoman said:

Just a small update:

......

The cool thing is that I can compare the CW4 vs the lascala AL-5 side by side in my own livingroom. 

In the end one pair of speakers will leave, but for now I just enjoy the situation to be able to compare both speakers 😁

 

Hello,

as you are listening very critically I hope you are aware that speakers close together will influence each other.

Some frequencies are absorbed, depending on the size of the speaker - a kind of a 'bass trap'.

[Shakeydeal]

I certainly wouldn't move them any closer together. If anything I would move them about another foot apart and toe them in so they cross about six ft behind your listening position.

 

These speakers should be more open than Cornwalls, not boxier sounding. Early Lascalas yes, AL5s, no.