The chatty side of audiophilia...

[maxg]

Seems each time I go away for a short while all hell breaks loose here somehow, although I am sure the 2 events are unrelated..

Anyway been kinda busy of late and not had too much time to get online aside from flying visits and certainly no time to write anything of note.

In an effort to put some of that right I have lots of minor news as follows;

My much anticipated Cantate Domino Proprius recording finally arrived and certainly near mint if not actually mint condition. For those not in the know this is the ultimate recording of Christian Music performed and recorded in various skandinavian churches with lots of choral and organ stuff. The main interest is in its astounding sound staging and depth although the music itself is pretty sublime.

Seems to be standard fare amongst Greek audiophiles if not elsewhere.

Tony seems to be nearing completion of his "most neutral system in the world". Briefly it comprises Quad 989's driven by the Accuphase E407 integrated amp connected via the Accuphase card slot phono stage directly to the modified Rega 250 arm supporting the Shelter 901 cartridge on his Acoustic Solid TT.

His only pending upgrade that is obvious is the speaker cabling as he is not happy with the current set (Synergistic silver cables).

I have only heard it briefly. It was cold both in that he didnt allow the components any time to warm up and in the sound. The only thing he has in his collection in common with my own is the Wild Child Butler direct to disk 180 gramme recording. I much prefer the sound of that on my own system but I have promised to give his another go with it warm just to check. As it was it came across as blues performed by surgeons rather than bluesmen. A truely sterile environment.

MY own system has undergone a number of minor changes. Kelly will be pleased to know the speaker placement has changed dramatically. Basically the wife has removed the cabinets to another room and the speakers ran for a time on the floor.

This had a duel effect of improving the voice of the system whilst totally removing the soundstage depth. After a lot of playing around I have mounted them temporarily on a pair of octagonal wooden units we had spare (and stuffed with bottles of booze). This height seems to work well in that the new found voicing is intact whilst the vast majority of the soundstage has reappeared.

I had the owner of a local audiophile shop round for a listen and to provide some input. He reckons the cabling is wrong for the speakers and has lent me a pair of van der Hull D352 cables to try out. Of course it turns out the ends suplied dont fit into the back of the damn speakers so I will have to go back tomorow for him to change them.

One interesting piece of input that he had that seems to have worked brilliantly was with the speaker positions. He pointed out that my speakers are monitors with front firing ports and as such are designed to work up against the wall as opposed to the 2 feet or so away that I had placed them. Placing them against the wall really seems to have reinforced their sound and further improved the soundstage.

You've heard the term "speakers disappearing" no doubt but how about a wall disappearing sonically??

Anyway that will probably do for now. I'll get back soon with more updates and hard to believe stories from the land of olives, wine and sun soon.

Oh one more thing and it is a piece of bad news for me anyway. Vinyl prices are definitely starting to climb here. MY local supplier who was charging $6 a disk is suddenly asking $20 a disk (although he is limiting my costs to $12 as I am such a good customer). That is still a 100% increase and does not bode well!!!

OK that's it and remember - DONT FEED THE TROLLS!!

[HornEd]

Great to hear from the land where the oil grows on trees... but I missed the part about how the wee crumb cruncher takes to mounted in her crawl space. From the sound of things, vinyl is getting high enough to become a new "foreign exchange" on the Klipsch Forum.

So, maxg, don't be a stranger... we want to know when your have your next Klipsch transfiguration after dallying with all those old GigaDrachma, "to reality and beyond" Greek audiophiles. In a more serious vein, many of us miss your comments on a wide variety of topics. Your viewpoints are always so fresh and alive... even if we don't always agree. Before you joined the Forum, Christos' audio passion was all Greek to me. =HornEd

[jt1stcav]

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..."One interesting piece of input that he had that seems to have worked brilliantly was with the speaker positions. He pointed out that my speakers are monitors with front firing ports and as such are designed to work up against the wall as opposed to the 2 feet or so away that I had placed them. Placing them against the wall really seems to have reinforced their sound and further improved the soundstage.

You've heard the term "speakers disappearing" no doubt but how about a wall disappearing sonically??"

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Hi maxg, it's jt1stcav, a relatively new forum member. Nice to meet you.

I'm interested in your latest description on loudspeaker placement. My Cornwalls are roughly 18" from the rear wall and 6" from either sides. From what you were told, I'd be best to push my CWs back against the wall? My CWs aren't toed-in too much; should they remain so? I'm always looking for the best possible soundstage...maybe this is the ticket, huh?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Jim

[HornEd]

Jim, as a fellow Cornwall user, push 'em up against the wall, that's how PWK intended for them to be used. Cornwalls are front ported (take of your grille and you will see rectangular ports firing toward the front. Generally, front ported speakers are intended to be against the wall and tend to pick up more strength if they are near walls, for example. Having them away from the wall tends to take away reinforcement. So, you should be in for better sound... or at least a bit more useable square feet. Enjoy! =HornED

[maxg]

I think it is certainly worth trying the speakers against the wall - if you dont like the effect you can always move them back.

Basically if there is one thing I have picked up from my time in this audio playpen is that almost anything is worth trying in these zero cost areas. Everything I have heard to date talks about speakers being a good distance from the wall, and even from the side walls. All I can tell you is that it works for me to have them agains the wall - and I really never expected it to...

[Invidiosulus]

Welcome back maxg.

It's good to see you are experimenting with speaker placement over there howeverlooking through your post I tried to figure out which speakers you were using. Whether you are using the heresies or the sansui I could not tell.

I moved my heresies out from yhe wall about a foot and a half because they were actually getting to much help from the walls and the bass was a liitle on the muddy side.

That stinks to hear about the vinyl situation, fortunately for my poor budget prices in my area of the states are still pretty mediocre.

If they were cheaper all my money would be spent on vinyl and I would not eat I'm sure.

Peace, Josh

[maxg]

Hi Indi,

Yep - back with a vengence for the time being..

True I didnt say which speakers - if I told you that was deliberate I think you can guess why...

With a bit of luck that should clear the question up - but dont tell anyone!!

[maxg]

Holy cow - 750 posts - where did I ever find the time??

BTW - note the speaker cables in the picture - finally got the Van der Hulls connected....

Whoever says cables dont make a difference can come over anytime. Of course the jury is still out on whether I prefer this rather more laid back presentation - certainly parts of it are better - just not sure about the whole as yet.

Biggest change is to the highs - listening to Maria Callas sing an aria brought a tear to my eye and it hasnt done that in a long time!! Just not sure about those mids - they seem to have slowed and lost a little of their impact. Anyway I have them for a week so who knows - maybe in a few days I will be writing about cable run in.

[mobile homeless]

good to see you use some stands.

As usual, I find myself disagreeing with the advice in here concerning speaker placement (ie Flat up against the wall since they are "front firing ports"). I dont know where this is coming from but it surely doesnt hold any truth in my experience if searching for proper imaging and soundstaging.

In short, having front firing ports does not mean that wall placement is better nor called for. Indeed, you want to place your speakers so they have the best tonal balance combined with as good a soundstaging / imaging properties as possible. Having speakers pressed against the back wall will seriously reduce soundstage depth and more often than not, add too much thickness to the low end. Thankfully, most Klipsch seemed to be less affected in this way. The farther you bring them away from the wall, the better for depth. You do reduce the low end reinforcement which is the reason for moving near wall and/or corners. I personally dont like any speakers in the corners for imaging or proper soundstaging. THE ONLY reason I find corner placement necessary is speakers designed for it to achieve low end (ala Khorn, which I would probably elect to do artificial corners) and when you HAVE to do to space. In EVERY instance I can think of, moving speakers OUT INTO THE ROOM, has increased the system's ability to render full soundstage depth/imaging. Perhaps the fellow felt you were not getting any bass and the tonal results were THIN in your room so he suggested moving them back to the wall and since your speakers DIDNT have rear firing ports, this was less problematic. I find it highly unlikely he said the front firing ports CALLED FOR WALL PLACEMENT, as this is just not the case.

Placing the speakers flat against the wall and facing forward strikes me as not the best imaging placement on all fronts. In my view, further experimentation should be carried out.

kh

[ChrisK]

Have to agree with Kelly on this one. My CW's seem to sound better about 45cm from the wall behind them, facing straight forward. Optimal listening distance for soundstage/depth seems to be about 3m or slightly more depending on volume and type of music. However, the part I like best about them is the way they seem to fill the whole room with good, clear sound no matter where you are sitting or strolling.

Regards,

Chris

PS Kelly, your avatar looks a little imposing to me. But, then again, I'm probably just a wuss.

[mobile homeless]

Well, I changed my avatar just for you...although now it seems to have different connotations.

I still believe that forward firing speakers, on the whole, dont produce the best image location as it tends to be too diffused and spread out. Tends to be taste and room driven as well but this has usually been my findings.

kh

[ChrisK]

Kelly,

Funniest thing I've read in awhile (the "different connotations" part).

still chuckling,

Chris

PS I have a sick mind.

[HornEd]

Kelly, I may have said from time-to-time that front firing ports do not create the same wall distance restraints that rear firing ports do... but I certainly did not mean to imply that one should shove them against the wall and not experiment with ideal placement. The space in which we place our speakers is often an acoustic jungle where sometimes bizarre placements are winning placements. Rear mounted ports through in an added dimension of needing room to achieve their desired effect for engineering reasons beyound other placement issues.

In re-reading my above post... I failed to communicate the whole story... mea culpa x three!

Tuning into your space has to be the number one consideration in setting up two-channel, three-speaker stereo, or multi-speaker audio/HT. I guess the second most important aspect is tube rolling! -HornEd

PS: Maxg, I, too, know the Maria Callas tear... only it came wrapped with Khorns and Belle. On the bright side, the Euro Patents are expiring on the epic Callas recordings... and should be tantilizingly available throughout the common market for cheap this year. It will be interesting to have you rate them against your time-eroded vinyl.

[mobile homeless]

Agree 100% on the acoustic jungle here...and in the problem with monster boxes located in a living space that must serve three or four fuctions besides thy listening room. Alas, my CW are far more into the corners than I like. Thank sweet Yahweh they seem to be less affected than most designs. Placing my ProAc towers into the corners was a lesson in pain management with uneven sound and mediocre everything else besides aesthetics.

kh

[maxg]

"time-eroded vinyl" - Nice one HornEd!!!

Should be good for a laugh anyway.

As for the whole speaker placement issue it is one of the reasons I havent been on. Those cupboards I used to have may not have been ideal but they did simplify the whole placement issue. Once gone my speakers were lost in the middle of nowhere and I was having the devils own job trying to get them to perform.

All the time I had the speakers a good 2 feet into the room and was steadily heading further out. What my advisor told me was to try moving towards the wall if I didnt get any joy with where I was going. This was contrary to anything I thought I knew about speaker positioning which is why I mentioned it.

Having played with all heights from ground level to 3 feet in the air in approximately 1 inch intervals and all distances from the wall from 3 inches to 3 feet in similar intervals I can tell you that what you see in the picture is what worked best.

I also was not saying against the wall was the only way to place them - I was merely pointing out that it is worth trying - something that would not have occured to me previously.

[mobile homeless]

How are you saying they worked the best here? You mean had the most full, balanced sound? Because there is no way they have the best imaging. Postively if that could be said. You might be increasing the low end heft and weight but you are not doing the imaging ANY favors against the wall. To simply say "they sound best" here is not really enough detail. Any speaker near the boundaries compromises the imaging to a degree but will increase the low end output as the walls start to assist in the bottom more. Out into the room will greatly reduce the room's HELP in the bottom end.

Ultimately, it would be best to achieve full range sound away from the room boundaries as this is the best way to float solid, defined images with air around them (this assuming you have the rest of the gear/setup to accomplish this task as well).

kh

[maxg]

OK Kelly,

Sounds best as follows:

In their initial position atop the cupboards they had a magnificent sound stage with both depth and width and obviously significant height - real 3d stuff.

The problem was that voicing was a little weak. After much playing with other items I managed to improve the voicing but it was never a match for the Heresy's.

Once the cupboards were removed I played the speakers on the floor for a while. It was immediately apparent that the voicing was much better but that the soundstage had deteriorated. Width was there but nothing else - half the height and all the depth had gone.

The game then started to find the best height which would retain the quality of voice whilst providing an acceptable soundstage.

Now - here is the surprising thing - against the wall the soundstage is at its best - see above for my commment about the wall disappearing as opposed to just the speakers...

No, I didnt think it would work either - but it seems to...