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LaScala AL5 Noise


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On 7/8/2023 at 1:41 AM, OO1 said:

nope , 0.005   is 0.00 in mathematical terms ,

FYI  ,   the measurements  of no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion ... of the Sansui AU-D11  amplifier’s rating of 120 watts per channel into 8-ohm loads  is from 10 to 20,000 Hz  and definitely not at  1KHz ,    1-2 wpc  with this  120wpc amp  with  Heritage speakers    will have 0  distortion  .

 

 

Randy, I'm not so sure if a transistor amp makes less distortion at very low power output than at high power. The distortion of small signals has often been the Achilles heel of larger transistor amps. It is not a linear relationship with class AB amps. Hence the name "First Watt" by N. Pass....as a solution to this problem. Quad goes a different way to solve the problem, but it was recognised as an important source of distortion. Also many very hot running Class A sand amps are in this relationship with merit.
The issue addresses not only quiet late evening listening on high efficiency loudspeakers. Rather, no matter how loud you listen, there are always those moments when a sound appears out of the silence, or when the sound disappears back into the silence. And that's where the effects of greater distortion always affect the listening experience.

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One would like to think the makers of those high power amps would have corrected this problem at low watt usage but I have my doubts. Why, because those that buy those mega watt amps will probably be using them on inefficient speakers which do not wake up till they see a lot of watts. In other words the market for high power amps is low efficient speakers. I would like to think that the high end audiophile amps will have low numbers at low watts but it could very well be not the case. Our speakers are perfect for low wattage tube amps. Most audiophiles with other speakers will not be able to use or hear the wonderful sound SET amplifiers make with our speakers. On my LaScala's, in SS, I look for a well respected 25 watt or less amplifier. Naturally the offerings from Firstwatt are perfect with our speakers but do not expect .0001 numbers from Firstwatt. Nelson designs Firstwatt, most of the time, for a little 2nd harmonic and a touch of third which is considered by many to be the ideal amplifier and sounds the best. 

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1 hour ago, KT88 said:

Randy, I'm not so sure if a transistor amp makes less distortion at very low power output than at high power. The distortion of small signals has often been the Achilles heel of larger transistor amps. It is not a linear relationship with class AB amps. Hence the name "First Watt" by N. Pass....as a solution to this problem. Quad goes a different way to solve the problem, but it was recognised as an important source of distortion. Also many very hot running Class A sand amps are in this relationship with merit.
The issue addresses not only quiet late evening listening on high efficiency loudspeakers. Rather, no matter how loud you listen, there are always those moments when a sound appears out of the silence, or when the sound disappears back into the silence. And that's where the effects of greater distortion always affect the listening experience.

Heinz  ,   the AB class SS amp  discussed  here  use a distortion  reducing technique which produces no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion  or less   , with a rating of  120 wpc   into 8-ohm loads   from 10 to 20,000 Hz   , therefore at full load  ,  and yes  the  SS  amp  make  0  distortion at only a few watts output  .

 

  klipsch use  +1000 watts Rotel Michi amps for the Jubilee for the same reasons  , the question is not that the  H Jubilee requires 1000 wpc  amps to sound right  , but rather that the selected  amp   produces quasi nil distortion at  lower output  , in order for the H Jubilee (  bi-amped DSP ) to sound so SS clean 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, OO1 said:

Heinz  ,   the AB class SS amp  discussed  here  use a distortion  reducing technique which produces no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion  or less   , with a rating of  120 wpc   into 8-ohm loads   from 10 to 20,000 Hz   , therefore at full load  ,  and yes  the  SS  amp  make  0  distortion at only a few watts output  .

 

  klipsch use  +1000 watts Rotel Michi amps for the Jubilee for the same reasons  , the question is not that the  H Jubilee requires 1000 wpc  amps to sound right  , but rather that the selected  amp   produces quasi nil distortion at  lower output  , in order for the H Jubilee (  bi-amped DSP ) to sound so SS clean 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Klipsch demonstrates Jubilee on all sorts of amps.  They don’t “use” Rotel it’s not part of the purchase.  Dealers use various amps with Jubilee.  The Jubilee has 2 woofers.  For comparison the JBL 2226H/J has 600W AES continuous pink noise power capacity and is 97dB sensitive.  So two of the JBLs would mean 1200 watt continuous while the Jubilee double woofers will do 300W continuous.  Interesting but not the full story. 

 

Jubilee power handling:

  • POWER HANDLING (CONT/PEAK):
    • LF - 300W / 1200W
    • HF - 100W / 400W

Note the power handling of the Jubilee top end.

 

Many amps have gain stages that are inoperable, literally switched off, at low output and that’s why they are quiet.  Less is more.  A good explanation for one such amp is here. 

 

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1 hour ago, OO1 said:

Heinz  ,   the AB class SS amp  discussed  here  use a distortion  reducing technique which produces no more than 0.005 per cent total harmonic distortion  or less   , with a rating of  120 wpc   into 8-ohm loads   from 10 to 20,000 Hz   , therefore at full load  ,  and yes  the  SS  amp  make  0  distortion at only a few watts output  .

And here is the problem Randy I believe is your name, distortion is stated at full power and not at .5watts with no mention of distortion at .5 watts. This is the way class A/B PP amplifiers with lots of power have been rated for as long as I can remember so your hypothesis of zero distortion is not accurate. That and zero distortion is not reality with any electronic product. There is always going to be some distortion. Another factor to consider is PP A/B distortion is odd distortion which is very unpleasant whereas even distortion is pleasurable for many. What is meant by even and odd for example is let's say the signal is 1Khz. Even distortion is going to be 2Khz 2nd harmonic and 4khz the 3rd harmonic distortion. Odd is just the opposite. All this is just technical stuff because in reality all the better SS PP A/B are going to sound just fine. The thing is though a SET tube or class A amp from Firstwatt is going to sound better. That is if one has the hearing to compare. Let's face it guys, many are just fine listening to Bose. 

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20 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

  your hypothesis of zero distortion is not accurate.  

 sure it is   , and it 's  based on an actual  SS Amplifier /no hypothesis /real facts , 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, OO1 said:

really ?

YouTube much?  Dealer much?  Easy enough to see Jubilees demoed with Esoteric, McIntosh, anything you want, just need pre-amp outs for active crossover.  Whatever Klipsch uses for road shows comes out of loaner inventory/local dealer.  Listen to the Klipsch rep Chad about what can run Jubs!

 

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37 minutes ago, OO1 said:

 sure it is   , and it 's  based on an actual  SS Amplifier /no hypothesis /real facts , 

 

 

Sorry and not go argue but if one knows anything about electronics you would understand zero distortion is not possible. There is always going to be measurable distortion in any electronic product. Electrons going to a straight piece of wire will have distortion along with the signal. I have never heard of any test equipment, used to accurately determine distortion ,with zero distortion. Just not possible in reality. If someone can find a distortion analyzer with zero distortion I will be open to see the ad or product. Does not exist. Lab equipment gets the numbers down really low but some is always going to be there. I am talking 5 and 6 figure tests equipment. They will proudly display their distortion numbers which can be extremely low only measurable with better test equipment. 

 

 

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The thing is in the above example of electrons flowing through a single resistor as a byproduct of electrons going through a simple resistor there will be trace amounts of inductance and capacitance as well. This is considered distortion because the only thing you want a resistor to do is slow down the flow of electrons. Not enough byproducts to be a concern in a simple resistor but it is there. Where such becomes important is when dealing with active components mostly, tubes or transistors. Both can have significant amounts of capacitance between the leads which can be detrimental. Amounts are stated in the data sheets of tubes and transistors. When you start with parts with distortion you are just going to add more distortion with all the other components. The trick is to keep the numbers down where it does not effect the sound much if any. I personally prefer an amplifier with some 2nd harmonics and a touch of 3rd as the famous designer Jean Hirago stated as best decades ago. Nelson Pass agrees so I am in good company. 

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8 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Sorry and not go argue but if one knows anything about electronics you would understand zero distortion is not possible. There is always going to be measurable distortion in any electronic product. Electrons going to a straight piece of wire will have distortion along with the signal. I have never heard of any test equipment, used to accurately determine distortion ,with zero distortion. Just not possible in reality. If someone can find a distortion analyzer with zero distortion I will be open to see the ad or product. Does not exist. Lab equipment gets the numbers down really low but some is always going to be there. I am talking 5 and 6 figure tests equipment. They will proudly display their distortion numbers which can be extremely low only measurable with better test equipment. 

 

 

The OP complained about noise floor not THD anyway.  Audible THD is around 5% for an average ear so all these decimal places are pretty much meaningless.  There are other qualities of amps that are more noticeable once THD is below audible levels.  
 

Here’s a simple discussion of car audio THD.
 

“When the harmonics reach 5%, they are clearly audible. If the tone was music, you would have trouble hearing 5% THD. The 1 % is only barely audible and it's mixed with a continuous, steady tone. With music, it would be inaudible.” https://www.bcae1.com/thd.htm#:~:text=When the harmonics reach 5%%2C they are clearly,steady tone. With music%2C it would be inaudible.

 

People hear noise floor long before they complain of THD.  People also complain of an amp not producing adequate high frequency at low volumes, and then lacking LF slam at higher volumes.  Then there’s the midrange mud.  But some artist sound benefits from lack of reproduction fidelity so there’s that too. 
 I’m always surprised with what people latch onto spec-wise instead of what they have learned to hear and expect out of old and new music. 

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On 7/6/2023 at 3:41 PM, Coytee said:

Have you *actually* used a shorting plug on your inputs yet?

@Kingdeezie I am going to pick a nit....a "shorting plug" on the input will absolutely reveal what the quietest is possible from your amp/speaker combo. But it is not real world realistic. No electronics up stream of your amp will have zero noise and zero output impedance. A more realistic test is a plug with a 1 k ohm resistor between the center pin and ground.

 

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All this talk of THD in amplifiers  Jeesh...your SPEAKERS produce WAY MORE. AND IM distortion and FM distortion and comb filtering..these artifacts are much more perceptible. And are made the least objectionable by HORN loading. That's why we like our horn loaded Klipsch speakers.

Just my $0.02

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3 minutes ago, babadono said:

All this talk of THD in amplifiers  Jeesh...your SPEAKERS produce WAY MORE. AND IM distortion and FM distortion and comb filtering..these artifacts are much more perceptible. And are made the least objectionable by HORN loading. That's why we like our horn loaded Klipsch speakers.

Just my $0.02

Klipsch should sell horn-loaded baseball caps so everything sounds better.  I still cup my ears with my hands anytime I want to hear better.  A Klipsch horny cap would be awesome until I get yelled at which is quite often.  Nerds unite. 

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