boomac Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 Just bought a pair of Forte IIs and plans were to use them as F-Mains along with my Quartets as R-Surrounds in my HT system. However, after listening to the Forte IIs, I have reconsidered and am thinking about using them in a two channel system. So, what kind of power should I consider? I have an older Tandberg 2045 Receiver but have been urged to consider a McIntosh amp/tuner set-up "to warm up the horns". It has also been suggested that I could use a McIntosh amp along with my Tandberg. What are the best options to get good sound quality without spending a bunch of money? The Tandberg has a couple of negatives. It's modern in appearence, (wife hates) and it's two inches too wide to fit in my cabnet. Two channel listening will be 70% jazz, 15% rock, 10% country and 5% other. Thanks, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I think the key phrase here is "not spending a lot of money." Your best bet will probably be buy some used gear based on the recommendations of some of the more experienced and "exposed" posters. You can also opt to look for some busted, broken gear you can score for a steal and then fix, or perhaps find a nice mc250 somewhere with a blown fuse for $12... LOL All in all though, there's plenty of great sounding used gear out there that won't break the bank. You just need to inquire on the board as to how robust it is because you don't want to buy something that's notorious for giving problems or crapping out. I'm sure many people will respond and throw some options your way. All I can recommend is the now infamous (?!) H/K 430 as an excellent, extremely cost-effective buy that'll probably sound great on your Fortes seeing how they have the same midrange and tweeter as the Heresy IIs and boy oh boy does the H/K sound good on the Heresy IIs. It seems like everyone here who took HDBRbuilder's (Andy's) advice is EXTREMELY pleased at the low cost and high performace given by the H/K. If you wanna spend more then $80 to $100 (the average cost of the H/K) and want to try some tubes you should ask NOS or Mobile about some "relatively" low-cost good performing tube amps since they seem to tinker around with that stuff and are quite knowledgeable. Tubes should work well with your Fortes since they use the same mid and high frequency drivers as the Heresy II, which is part of the Heritage series. And if you ask around here, most people will probably say that to achieve the best sound from your Heritage series you'll need to go with a quality tube amp. You can get great sound from quality SS gear (I said quality, which doesn't necessarily mean expensive) but the overall consensus tends to be that tube power reigns supreme for the heritage series. Whatever you choose, enjoy your Fortes, which, incidentally, have been known as "heresys, but with bass!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 That is some great advise from heresy2guy so now its in your ballpark ! What is your budget and what type of system would you be interested in SS or Tubes ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 ---------------- On 2/27/2003 3:42:09 AM heresy2guy wrote: All I can recommend is the now infamous (?!) H/K 430 as an excellent, extremely cost-effective buy that'll probably sound great on your Fortes seeing how they have the same midrange and tweeter as the Heresy IIs and boy oh boy does the H/K sound good on the Heresy IIs. ---------------- Not trying to pick nits, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something here, as I've seen this comparison/equivalency stated before. As I read it, the Heresy II uses the K-76-K tweeter/K-53-K midrange and the Forte II uses the K-75-K tweeter/K-61-K midrange. Seems to me these are not the same... DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Thanks so far guys. I would like to stay under 1000k for the amp/pre amp combo or receiver. Not sure about tubes vs SS but would consider going either way for the best sound. I am a collector of "old stuff" and like the idea of older quality equiptment. Not sure why, but "tubes lit up" sounds attractive. Guess I could sell a few old tennis racquets if necessary. Actually, I've only heard the Forte IIs using my HT Receiver, a Sony STR DA 2ES. Not bad. Maybe I will dust off the old Tandberg and give it a try. However, even if it sounds great, I will still be confronted with the size and decor problem. Better to sell it and move on. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 You're right Doug - the Forte IIs used a different midrange then the Heresy IIs. It's the original Fortes that shared the same mid and tweeter. I caught this myself last night and "edited" my post accordingly but now I'm looking at it today and I notice that it's the same un-edited post that I did, in fact edit. LOL. Go figure. Probably my fault - I usually have several windows open at one time and I probably closed the edited one out before clicking submit. No harm done since Doug pointed out the midrange difference anyway. I do know that the Fortes had similar mids and highs to the Heresy IIs due to sharing the drivers, but the Forte IIs went to a tractrix horn midrange so I suspect they may very well be an audible difference to both the Fortes and Heresy IIs. BUT, regardless of all that, I've heard many people say that the Forte, Chorus (the Chorus had same mid and tweeter as the Cornwall II) and Quartet all sound "heritage like" except they had different (cheaper in my opinion) cabinets and passive radiators. Well, I think the Cornwall II didn't have a radiator - I think it was ported. And since you seem to have a rather decent budget ($1,000) perhaps a nice vintage tube amp and preamp would be the way to go??? NOS really digs the vintage tube gear and I'm sure he could help point you in the right direction. One day, I'd like to hear a pair of Khorns connected to some really good tubes. I bet it'll make my heart sing.... and then make me cry because I haven't the disposable cash to go that route right now....or more to the point, the proper floor-plan in my home to place them since my house isn't very big (see picture) and placing Khorns in it would be akin to trying to mount a pair of Heresys on the dashboard of a Yugo! LOL. As my wife said after looking at a pair of Khorns: "If we ever move back East and can afford a big old restored Victorian THEN you can have them." Guess that'll be when hell freezes over...LOL! Oh well, I guess my beloved Heresys and H/K will have to suffice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Do you really think either a tube amp/preamp or a McIntosh SS amp/preamp would have a dramatic effect on the Forte IIs? Power wise, I think my Tandberg is 45wpc. The McIntosh set up was like 125wpc. Not sure what feature would "warm up the horns" as I've heard. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I listen to my Forte IIs at a fraction of a Watt. At that power, most transistor amps are pushing big single digits of distortion while tube amps are settling below a percent. Your Fortes can use an amp that produces low distortion at low power. If I were you, I'd take NOS440 up on anything he has to offer. I know tube is a leap, but you did buy Fortes didn't you? So be logical and treat them right. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted March 1, 2003 Share Posted March 1, 2003 I don't think the term "power," in respect to watts-per-channel really means a whole lot when you're dealing with Klipsch speakers. This is one of the first things that I learned by coming to this forum and reading all I could. I mean, one little watt makes 97 dB with my Heresy IIs - that's a LOT of volume! My own experience comes into play when I had my proton d940, Technics, and now H/K receivers connected to my Heresy IIs. Their ratings are 40, 100, and 25 watts-per-channel respectvely. Guess which one sounds not only the cleanest but loudest - the H/K with "only" 25 watts per channel. I "aspire" to one day have a pair of Khorns or LaScalas and then run them off a nice tube amp that'll probably have somewhere between 3.5 and maybe 18 watts per channel. Ask anyone here on this board who's knowledgable on tubes and they tend to snicker when you want to use the term "watts-per-channel" with "tubes." Instead, the conversation tends to circle around just how the particualr amplifier SOUNDS, it's tonal characteristics, NOT it's power. For the most part, power-issues seem to be issues for either non-Klipsch (i.e. non-efficient speakers) or, when concerning Klispch speakers, the yet-to-be educated. As for me, I still consider myself a "freshman" on these topics, so it'll be some time until I can don my cap & gown, so to speak. LOL. Hmmm....seems like you've got two choices: SS or tubes. Most people seem to use SS on the RF series. Most people seem to use SS on Heritage too but a lot use tubes and the consensus is (even among SS heritage users) that tubes are what they'd one day like to try - kinda like myself. So, since you own what I'd consider to be a "heritage" speaker (due to what's written about it's sound), you can either go the SS route or leap-frog it and go directly to tubes. Perhaps you have the money to buy, listen, and compare BOTH and then make a decision. That would be the very best way in my opinion. Then you can choose what you like best and either return or re-sell the "loser" while keeping the "winner" and thus by default, become one happy camper! Sounds like the way to go if you can afford it! Take care! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted March 2, 2003 Author Share Posted March 2, 2003 Gentlemen, I appreciate the input. Perhaps I incorrectly phrased the question how to power Forte IIs. I really didn't mean watts per channel power but rather what kind of amp/preamp set-up should I be considering to provide the best quality sound. I remember that, when I bought the Tandberg 2045 I was concerned about the power,(45W per channel I think) but was surprised at how well it made my Quartets sound. Recently, I saw a McIntosh amp/preamp set-up and was informed that it would work quite well with the Forte IIs. I think "it would really warm up the horns" was the key line. I have an idea what that might mean but I'm not exactly sure. I know McIntosh is great equiptment but that's where my knowledge ends. Is it really worth the investment? I've learned, on this forum, that the HK 430 can make Heritage Series Speakers sound great. How so? What is the difference in sound and or sound quality? The idea of tubes is interesting but I'm not sure why. Did I learn that a good tube amp will provide less distortion at lower power levels? Will a SS McIntosh set-up provide similar results? Maybe I just need to continue reading the posts and learn more about all this. Getting the Forte IIs and reading a little on this forum can get one excited and ready to move up the scale so any and all information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, SCott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 2, 2003 Share Posted March 2, 2003 boomac, My opinion is that in order to get good sound from horn loaded speakers one must us an amp that delivers low distortion at low (below a Watt) power. The power that matters here is not the rated power of the amplifier, but the power that the amp is delivering when you listen to it. Even then, the frequencies where most of the distortion-related harshness is heard (upper midrange) is drawing a fraction of the total power being heard. So, it is unlikely that the amp powering your Fortes will ever be delivering more than a watt of midrange power. You need an amp that can deliver low distortion at under a watt. In ss designs, distortion tends to increase significantly below a Watt output. Some designs, evidently the HK430, avoid that tendency (not simple at all with transistors). Tube-based designs are more likely to handle low powers well because tubes themselves tend toward lower distortion at lower power. In the end, with your Fortes, what you are hearing is how well your amp performs at under a watt. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSTRAUTMAN Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 ...Well, after all is said and done u will be much happier with a decent tube amp. Jolida has some reasonably priced pieces. Personally I have tried my Forte II's with Denon and Yamaha, but I didn't know what I was missing til I ran my Sansui 1000A tube amp(50wpc), almost heaven. I also have a Harmon Kardon A700(35wpc), and it sounds outstanding, with sharp highs and incredible detail. It should be noted that speaker placement is very important as well. Go tubes and u will be totally happy. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 To me, $1000 is a very nice budget to limit oneself to for this...about ten times as much as a simple old H/K 430 S/S receiver will go for. If tubes are the way you intend to eventually go, you may find eBay item 3010930891 may just fit your purse. Now, I have no idea just how good these particular old tube monoblocks sound, so you will have to ask some of the other tube-heads around here. BUT, since you like old things, and these ARE OLD, but also NEW OLD STOCK WITH THE ORIGINAL BOXES...and have a "buy it now" of about HALF your budget, which leaves you plenty left over for a decent tube preamp and tuner...you may want to at LEAST give them a look before they are grabbed up!! My experience would lead me to believe that this just MIGHT be one of those "once in a lifetime opportunities"! Hint! Hint! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Well..."ya snooze, ya lose"!!! Looks like the seller of that NOS pair of H/K tube monoblocks has "wised-up" and removed his original "buy it now" of $499...no telling what the winning bid on these will be now! Anybody know anything about these particular models? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSTRAUTMAN Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 ...Another site with some very good deals is Classic Audio, www.oldhifi.com. To buy used tube equipment try to go through a reputable resaler or buy new. E-Bay and the like can offer some apparent good deals, but as I and some of my tube head friends know all too well, u can get burned. My H/K A700 integrated amp and tuner cost me only $224 on E-Bay, but the s&h was another $96 and then I had to refurbish the entire amp; total cost about $800. I must say though, the sound is incredible, this one is richer and more detailed than my Sansui 1000A. Too bad I can't take u for a spin with this amp and the Forte II's, I'm sure u could make a quick decision about tube sound after a two hour session. RS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Those HK are still available at the BIN price. Someone just placed a bid so the BIN price disaappeared. He says in the auction he'll end auction early for the BIN price and go half on shipping and packaging. I'd like to buy 'em just to have 'em. but I'm broke now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Craig, in another post in this section, states he would have serious reservations on bidding on the particular above-mentioned(by me) H/K monoblocs on eBay. You may want to look at his comments in that other thread about these. Craig is a knowledgeable tubie, and when he voices a concern, it is wise to pay attention to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 to quote Craig: "I know one thing I wouldn't trust the seller as far as I could throw him. He discribes them as NOS/NIB but told me in a email that they have had Solid State rectifiers installed and take a close look at the Output Iron they show signs of over heating. Also if they were NOS/NIB I can garrantee you Sovtek didn't supply the tubes. Buyer beware ! But I bet if they were in good working order they would be a great set of amps." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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