H/K 430 vs. NAD 3240

[mace]

Well, I finally got a chance to compare these two amps with some quality time. I used a CD I put together with various stuff I own. Metallica, Crash Test Dummies, Pepe Romero (Bach on guitar), Beethoven 6th, Joe Satriani, Dream Theater, Daft Punk, Kraftwerk, Brandenburg Concerto 5, Corelli, Wang Chung, Queensryche: Operation Mindcrime. Listening level was at about 90-100 dB, both amps set to equal dB level with 1 kHz warble test tone, measured with per rat-shack digital SPL meter. So, there you have it.

Front end was a Sony SACD 222ES using Monster 550i interconnects. Wire to speakers is vanilla Monster off a big roll (heavy gauge, 25 ft runs). Speakers are stock 1977 Cornwalls.

The NAD 3240 is an integrated stereo amp with 40 WPC, 0.03% THD at 0.25-40 W and 6 dB headroom and a pre-amp out and weights 15 lbs. The 430 is a tuner and integrated stereo amp, has 25 WPC, 0.3% THD 0.25-25 W with seperate power for each channel (left and right) and weighs 24 lbs. Both have phono inputs and damping factors of 40 or better.

Overall I liked the 3240 a bit better. It provided a bit more definition overall and tightness in the bottom end. The 430 was a tad overly bright at times, during loud passages or really crunchy electric guitars. In all reality, I didn't hear a great of difference between the two. Both are pretty clean, dynamic and can make the Cornwalls sing. I've never heard a tube amp so I can't compare but I'd suspect that either of these amps would sound like a typical SS amp as far as a bit of edginess, albeit either of these deliver clean power. The 3240 had noticably lower noise than the 430 when sitting idle.

On eBay, the 430's are a lot more plentiful and go for about $50. A NAD 3225 (a 25 WPC version of the 3240) is currently listed and going for $128, so the 430 is a better bargain.

For kicks, I measured the dB level of each amp (as well as the 3240 used as a pre-amp with the a B&K 2140 power amp) just for kicks. The results are attached to this post. Keep in mind, every increase of 10 dB in SPL sounds about twice as loud (roughly). Actually, the main reason for this was to establish what about 40 W delivers so that I can know what volume setting not to exceed since the B&K goes over the Cornwalls 100 W limit.

Mace

Knob vs. dB-10.pdf

[Bill H.]

Mace, Hey fellow Hoosier

Thank you for excellent, well put together comparison! I have heard NAD products and liked them, alot. With all the talk on the b/b about the 430's I was glad to see your enlighted, refreshing research. Have you ever had the opportunity to test and Creek Audio products? I love there clarity and crispness. Bill (Terre Haute).

[whell]

I would love to see sometime, from someone who has both units (or I'll do it, if someone wants to lend me their H/K 430!), a comparison of the H/K and a low power Marantz vintage, such as the 2220B. I've got my 2220B singing away behind me right now (in the office on a Sunday AM !) and it sounds just great to my ears.

[leok]

mace,

Nice review. The world of ss amps is a strange jungle filled with a lot of things that are not horn compatible and a few that are. Information regarding decent ss choices for horn speaker enthusiasts is valuable. My experiences with NAD have been terrible (model 3130), but clearly that is not an indicator even for alternate NAD offerings.

leok

[mobile homeless]

I have to say that I really dont like solid state amps on the Heritage Horns. I have had some VERY good solid state amps through here and the only ones I have felt offered acceptable sound after living with tube amps for awhile were the low watt, Class A, zero feedback variety as these tended to sound a bit more refined, clear, and more open/relaxed. At least some of the more warm sounding solid state amps are not as offensive. Still, in a side by side with appropriate tube offerings, there is no competition in the natural harmonics area.

I just have been testing the Waltham Integration P6D Digital integrated offering, this a Class T affair at around 6w. This also was far more palatable than any of the receivers or other solid state offerings. If you leave the amazing little unit in, you can actually forget what you might be missing and enjoy yourself. On the other hand, as soon as you re-insert something like the 2A3 amps, you suddenly say, "holy moly...lordy...there it is!" Indeed, the musical difference is not subtle. The relaxed ease and an order of magnitude more ambiance and harmonic richness, while still mixing excellent resolution, is not lost, even on less experienced listeners. Still, I think the little P6D touches some of the rare relaxed presentation, just not with the huge soundstage and air of tubes, especially single-ended triodes.

The same could be said for the natural ease of the vintage tube units which just illustrates the comparison between even the better, high end, solid state amps. Those after pyrotechnics and the sound of crackling gunfire, bombs, and over sibilant top end, might be disappointed. Then again, I find this more modern HT approach to sound to be quite far from real music played by live musicians, whether electronic or not.

kh

[justin_tx_16]

Now you don't need to open Adobe Acrobat

When in idle my HK430 has no audible hiss, mine was overhauled by an electronics repair shop before it was used, that may have something to do with it.

105dB! Yikes, need to measure this stuff with my heresy's. What did you use to measure this, program or device wise.

I would like to see a comparision of a comparable (in price or as close as possible) tube and SS against this HK430 to see a good bagain amp comparision. SOmething like this but maybe more extensive, though this was a surprise and thank you for it!

[J M O N]

I was scrolling down this thread and then instantly burst into laughter. Your new "handle" is hilarious Mobile!

[justin_tx_16]

how did you change that mobile? LoL!

edit: whoa that was easy!

[HDBRbuilder]

Interesting comparison Mace. BTW...I have tried over half a dozen times to answer your last PM to me...not sure you ever got it though...never seemed to work right from this end! I kinda think maybe your volume pot on your H/K may be quite worn, though. Neither of my 430's have any noise at all at idle. Part of that early-on scratchiness as yours warms up could still be in that volume pot. It is likely possible that after a few weeks of use, though, it may even cure itself. Very hard to make the call without being there to experience the problem first-hand. Your "volume control position" scale on your graph...would the "5" be high noon on the 430? If so, does your distortion point indicate the 430's volume knob pointing to around 2:30 or farther? My experience points to possibility of distortion beginning as soon as 2:30 o'clock setting or turned farther up. How did you get the decibel rating?...IOW...At what distance and was it between both speakers or at each speaker? Interesting comparison on the H/K's being the better value as an integrated amp, especially since the H/K also has the added bargain value of including a good tuner in the deal. One other question...about when was the manufacturing era of the NAD you used in the comparison...early 90's? My preferred listening levels on the 430 normally are below high noon through my Heresys....normally under even that and around 9 o'clock area....no idea of the decibels though.

[mace]

Lessee... I didn't give many details of what I did to do this test. First off, I had in ear plugs. Listening to 1/3 octave 1 kHz warble tones (from a Stereophile.com test CD) is not my cup of tee, especially at 100+ dB. The ratshack meter was about 3-3.5 m from the speakers, it was a little closer to the right one. I wasnt interested in measuring the sensitivty of the speakers, since this is next to impossible without an anechoic chamber. I only wanted to determine the relative differences in how the amps cranked up. This was also an anal way to determine at what knob position the two amps were putting out equal SPLs. The position of the SPL meter was constant.

The NAD 3240 was purchased new by me in 1989. This amp is not great but it is a little workhorse, as is the H/K 430. Neither of these would I consider musical or rich or warm, although, at 85-90 dB or less (real music) I dont find them too fatiguing, i.e. I can listen hours on end.

There may be some dirt lurking somewhere in the 430. Understand, the hiss I was referring to can be heard when my head is about 50 cm away from the speaker, not at the listening position. The hiss does increase with the volume knob being turned up but it is not what I would consider problematic, i.e. it is quiter than the hard drive in my laptop at my listening position.

The brushing sound I get when I turn the knobs happens on all knobs, not just the volume pots. Remember, this is only if I turn the knobs right after turning on the amp. After 45 seconds or so no knobs make any noise whatsoever.

As to the graph, because I didnt feel like wrestling with Excel, I converted the clock positions on the volume knob to 0-10 (7:00 - 5:00). So, 2.0 is 9 oclock, 5.0 is 12 noon etc. Distortion point (as in very noticable, turn it down right away distortion) for the 430 was at 3 oclock (8.0). I didnt get any turn it down right away distortion with the NAD. Ive measured normal music CDs to be about 20 dB above whats on the graph, for a given knob position. I suppose that means most CDs have a max of 0 dB signal.

I know of others on this board who have also claimed NAD is the bottom of the barrel. Unfortunately, my listening experiences with different gear in my home are very limited. But, NAD to me doesnt sound that bad. When I demoed the NAD in the store the $800 Yamaha sounded noticably better to me (warmer, less harsh) but I couldnt afford it. So, I know there are better out there. As stated before, Ive never heard a tube amp (unless my old Electrolux counts as a vacuum tube). So, yes, take my review with a grain of salt. I havent heard the best of the best in tubes or SS and my exposure is very limited. I do listen to a lot of live acoustic and amplified acoustic music so maybe that counts for something.

Now, a technical question... The reference signal (warble tone) was at -20 dB. Regular CDs are typically at -3 to 0 dB (Ive measured this). Lets say I put an amp at 12 oclock on volume knob with a -24 dB signal and then again with a -3 dB signal. Is the amp still putting out the same wattage for both signals or is the wattage for the -3 dB signal or is putting out 8x (-3 is 3 halvings of -24, each halving is doubling in power, hence 8x) the power or is the wattage the same? I think Ive already answered my question but I want to make sure. My whole point in seeing what the B&K could put out was so that I could find the limit on the volume knob at which the RMS power was safely less than 100 W. Because I used a -20 dB tone to do this, and normal CDs are much stronger, my test may be bogus. Although, the H/K did start distorting like a son-of-a-gun at about the 3 oclock position, so does that mean that was the 25 W level? Or maybe the H/K puts out 40 real watts since the 3240 at max power put out the same dB as the 430 did when clipping?? Kind of confusing, I suppose.

At any rate, Im attaching another graph, this one with 3 dB increments on the y axis, since every 3 dB gain is a doubling of output power.

Sorry for the long rambling....

Mace

Knob vs3.pdf

[skip marr]

Whell,

In 1975, I auditioned the 2220B vs. the HK430 for endless hours, as I was in college and anything was better than the books. I found the the HK blew away the Marantz, sonically as well as on paper. The HK slew rates, rise rates, low negative feedback, and wide bandwidth sold me. However, I must admit that the Marantz was a lot better looking. Today my HK still runs hot, and I see a lot of used 2220B's on ebay. This is just my opinion...kind of like women???

[mobile homeless]

Mace, why did you even buy the H/K 430 when you have the B&K2140? Seems like you have the solid state amplification of this ilk in fine hands and what you need is a tube integrated or tube preamp. The quality tube preamp works great with the B&K amps. Combine some of the money you are funneling to small items and get your main two channel system flying at full speed. I ran a tube preamp with my B&K M200 Sonata Monoblock amps for years, in first and second systems.

kh

[mace]

Pompous Azz,

First off, that new name rocks. When I first saw it with your Avatar, I thought someone was giving you a hard time. Then I saw the 3000 odd posts, then I saw the "kh" initials at the bottom. A smile broke across my face.

At any rate, the H/K 430 was purchased out of curiousity, it was regarded as warm and tube like and it was $50 off of eBay. Plus, it has a tuner. I've never owned a tuner of any kind, except my Sony Walkman, which I plugged in once to my system for the radio. Right now, I'm powering a second system for the kiddies area of the house (Boston T930's). Plus, I was curious how this warm, tube-like SS amp fared against my trusty old NAD. In the end, I preferred the NAD's sound but maybe that was all mental, since I've listened to the beast for 13 years straight! The NAD did seem a touch more natural, less harsh. Maybe the H/K needs a good cleaning. Who knows. At any rate, I can always sell the H/K 430 and not lose more than shipping costs, so it was worth buying, IMHO, based on recommendations here.

Point is, I agree 100% with you. I need to get ahold of some tubes.. I must hear some ripping tube powered Marshalls through some tube powered reproduction! I've been eyeing some pre-amps here and there but right now I need to get a CD player. I simply cannot take any more of this ear bleed Sampo DVD player... it is (was) the weak link in my system by a mile, the SACD I'm trying has more than shown me this.

In a few months I'll be serious pre-amp shopping (unless a good deal comes along sooner) and tubes are first on my list. Heck, I'd even consider an integrated Eico or Scott if the price were right. Of course, then I wouldn't need the B&K. Maybe the kiddies would appreciate it!

Mace

[mobile homeless]

I have never heard the B&K on Klipsch, but I think they were some of the most tube-like solid state amps around, especially in that price range. The early B&K were far superior to other amps of the time such as Adcom, which were somewhat less musical, not as dimensional, and more upfront sounding. I was a BIG fan of the B&K ST-202 and still think that it's an excellent amp for less efficient speakers. The 202 (and 140) was a very simple amp and had some nice MOSFETS, which I preferred to bipolar transistors for their more tube-like qualities.

Still, most of these SS amps just dont do wonders in the 1w range, where a lot of listening lives with Heritage. What a quality tube amp brings is the rich harmomics, lush sound, and the more cavernous soundstage. Even good SS just doesnt do the trick. Man, the difference is striking when you have some good sources and material. I can live with ok solid state, at least I think I can after having it in for awhile... then I put the tubes back in the circuit and just say to myself, "Well, I wont do that again..." I finally sold my last Solid state amp several years ago, although I still have some receivers lent out to friends and family.

I have no doubt the little H/K 430 is a neat little amp for the ducats, especially considering the tuner as a bonus. But I really think the Klipsch Horns deserve tubes despite with the SS proponents say, this just from my experiences with both types of amplification. I think horns do better with tubes than any other type of speaker I have heard.

kh

[HDBRbuilder]

I have never actually said the little H/K had the same sound as tubes. What I HAVE said is that it had a sound, warmth, and general lack of commonly-found S/S backround noise...MORE APPROACHING that of tubes than a great many of the other S/S products of its own time or any other time since its own time, in a package that can regularly be had for a total cost to a buyer of under $100.... and if one only had about 100 bucks or less to commit towards the purchase of a tuner/preamp/amp combo, then the 430 would be hard to beat if one intended to power up a pair of Klipsch Heritage series speakers with it. I also have stated that it is no slouch in the bass-bottom-end reproduction("it is a little bass monster")...an area that a good many S/S units over the years just don't seem to have as much "punch" in. I still stand by this overall evaluation of the H/K 430, when in good operating condition. Even more importantly, it is a good match to Klipsch Heritage series speakers...something that a great many S/S receivers over the years are NOT!

IOW...a great bang for the buck bargain(currently)...and a good S/S match to Klipsch Heritage speakers.

And that statement still seems to ring fairly true from what others have found out so far, providing the unit they have experienced is in good operating condition...which, after over 25 years(closer to 30 years, actually!)...many of these units still seem to operate quite well! On the other hand, there will always be some of these units that have badly worn pots or whatever after such a long time...or which have had controls that have been badly neglected in the venue of cleaning and lubrication, and even after numerous attempts at cleaning, still will retain some trash in them that is difficult to remove without removing the pots from the unit in order to get them cleaned-up better.

Mace,

I appreciate your willingness to throw a few bucks at one of the little H/K 430 models in order to provide us this honest review and comparison, and the additional comments based upon your past and present listening experiences with your Cornwalls in your listening environment!!

What is your impression (if any)of its tuner performance besides what you have already stated?

Skip Marr,

It seems your "back when they both were new" listening comparisons between the H/K 430 and the Marantz 2220B are about in line with my similar listening comparisons between the H/K "X"30 twin-powered models vs. their Marantz counterparts(in same power rating and price ranges) of that "back when they both were new" era of 75-76. I also had the impression the Marantz units had a "sharper, cool look" to them as compared to those of the H/K twin-powered line, but the performance factor leaned more toward the H/K's.

Nowadays, it is odd to me that the Marantz units of that time have such a huge following among the "vintage S/S freaks", while the H/K's do not....with those Marantz models generally selling for much higher prices on eBay, and elsewhere. Even stranger to me is the current "vintage Pioneer receiver craze"...since in my experiences, both those Marantz's and those H/K's generally out-performed the Pioneers in the same power-output range at that 75-76 time, when all were new (at least in so far as lack of backround noise and such...ie., a cleaner and "more natural musical sound"). Of course, back in that time, at the age I was back then...the general reasoning behind most purchases made by MY peers was "Look at how cool THAT one is...it has soooo many buttons and knobs, and it really gets loud with my speakers, too!"...LOL! But, then again, when referring to the seemingly general lack of a "vintage S/S receiver freak" following driving up the used prices of those H/K's on eBay and elsewhere, that is bound to be a good bit of the reason the H/K's are currently such a nice "bang for the buck" in the used market.