Tube equipment for Khorns

[Taylorshop]

What tube preamp match well with Klipschorns; or should I be going the other way and use a SS pre and tube power amp(s)? If so, what tube power amp is a good match with the khorns (Quicksilver horn amps?). I'm trying to get rid of as much noise as possible. I'm currently using a Quicksilver fullfunction tube preamp, but it's a little too noisy and I'm using a Citation XX SS poweramp.

Thanks

[Triode Pete]

Don't go to a solid state "sand" pre-amp...you'll regret the change in sonics, especially with K-horns.

You'll need to "scope-out" various pre-amps in your price range. For K-horns, I highly recommend an all tube set-up with a decent front-end. Remember, the K-horns will point out any flaw in your system. Also, the first watt is the most important watt with K-horns!

You can achieve silence at idle (or between notes) with an all-tube set-up. My current pre-amp & SET amps are dead silent at idle, even with the volume attenuators turned up.

Have fun & enjoy,

Pete

[dbflash]

Do Not Use a SS preamp and a tube amp. This "kills" the tube sound, for me at least.

A tube preamp and SS amp is not a bad combo.

Your Khorns do not require alot of power so you could go with a Set amp.

How much money do you want to spend and what kind of music do you listen to?

Danny

[kjohnsonhp]

Folks on this forum with KHorns seem to like the Welborne Labs Moondogs SET amps.

Certain Cary pre-amps seem to be popular.

The Wright Sound gear has gotten good reviews. Their Mono8's (300B tube) with pre-amp and phono stage have attracted my attention but the pre/phono alone is around $1400 new.

[Taylorshop]

Pete,

Thanks for the info! I checked out your system; WOW!!! Is it important that a SET amp be used with the Khorns vs a regular tube amp? In speaking with the Quicksilver folks concerning my noisy pre; they told me that basically all tube preamps would be a little noisy and and the same for tube power amps. That why that built their tube horn amp; it's suppose to have less gain.

Calvin

[Taylorshop]

Thanks Danny,

I can tell the SS pre is out of the question. I like jazz and mellow vocals. But I am try to incorporate HT in my system as well. So I need a little power up front as well. I don't know if I will be able to pull this off with one system, but I'm gonna try. I would like to keep the price down as much as possible because I still need a surround processor.

Calvin

[Taylorshop]

Thanks,

I research both models. Also, how do you like the 1050? I'm not sure if it will work with khorns in a HT system.

Calvin

[edster00]

Less gain in the preamp can be a good thing with our highly sensitive Klipsch speakers. Many of us prefer SET amps for their purity of sound but many others prefer higher powered PP tube amps or even high powered SS. It is all about what works best for you with your type of music in your room.

Keep us posted on your progress!

[Dflip]

Go to:

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=34065&sessionID={F24B59F4-CC57-48F3-8268-6543B6005D04}

This was a reference to the Cary preamps and a good write up. It deals with the difference between a 6SN7 and 12 AU7 based preamps. Many here prefer the 6SN7 based preamps, if you have the budget for these beauties.

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=34065&sessionID={F24B59F4-CC57-48F3-8268-6543B6005D04}

will give you a look at a new Pantheon 6SN7 amp that looks gorgeous.

If you are looking for a tube amp, your Khorns will not need a lot of power, so SET could do you well for jazz and eazy listening. The only debate is if you want to rock the house, then you might need have a little more power than the 3.5W SETs. A 300B based amp or push pull monoblocks would give you ample juice to light up your house and others.

You should have tubes in both the amp and preamp. There have been many wonderful things said about the tiny Wright SET amp, great value for the money. Not as full in the bottom end as the Moondogs, but also less expensive.

[Dale W]

Pantheon 6SN7 tube rectified pre-amp is as good as you'll find for 2 channel.

We are lucky enough to have 2 board members here that own this pre-amp , and i'm one of those lucky few.

use the search engine and you'll find the whole story , if not i'll send you the link for the description site.

[kjohnsonhp]

----------------

On 5/1/2003 7:51:13 PM Dflip wrote:

, how do you like the 1050? ----------------

For 2-channel I find the Cornwalls, outlaw 1050 and DVD player are too bright---especially rock CDs that have cymbals that are dominant even on warmer speakers. Even with my Dynaco amp connected to the Outlaw 5.1 bypass with a Sony CD player it's too bright.

For movies I wanted modern surround (6.1). Here I've been very happy. I love watching movies on my 1050/Cornwall/Heresy/DVD system.

The 1050 seems to have plenty of power for Klipsch and from what I've read it sounds as good as a Denon 3803. It just doesn't have as many features as the Denon line. No DPL II, no phono, no video switching, no Neo 6.1, 6 amps vs 7, etc. I find it easy to operate from the front panel. The 3803 has pages of on-screen adjustments that takes some learning.

You can buy a 1050 for $350 used and transfer the warranty under your name. Compared to a $1k recevier that leaves more money for tube 2-channel gear.

[Triode Pete]

Calvin,

"Is it important that a SET amp be used with the Khorns vs a regular tube amp?"

It's a matter of personal taste. Overall, I prefer SET with 2A3's over 300B's. It sounds "best" to me. I also have push-pull 2A3 amps where the bass response has slam & authority. When I was in my 20's, I definitely preferred that type of hi-fi sound, but I believe my current set-up has more accurate bass response & proper tonality through the entire listening (bandwidth) range. Some vintage gear can sound real good too. It depends on what you like.

"In speaking with the Quicksilver folks concerning my noisy pre; they told me that basically all tube preamps would be a little noisy and and the same for tube power amps. That why that built their tube horn amp; it's suppose to have less gain."

Nonsense. A properly designed & built tube preamplifier as well as tube amplifiers should not be noisy, even voiced through high efficiency (104dB & up) speakers. My current pre-amp has very high gain & is "dead silent". The proper design of the power supplies is critical. The proper use of transformer chokes, capacitors, etc. make a huge difference. Forget about using any power conditioner on properly designed amps & pre-amps. You won't need it (maybe on your digital front end only).

If your pre-amp is noisy, try switching interconnect cables. You might need better shielded interconnects. I once had unshielded Mapleshade interconnects. Worked great on my 437A pre-amp but was very noisy with my current pre-amp. Switched to well-shielded DIY Superlatives. Huge difference!

My $0.02,

Pete

[Taylorshop]

Pete,

I will try other interconnects, but I really think it is the preamp alone. Also, when I rub my hand on the metal case, I can hear a lot of feedback (tube ring) through the speakers. I still like power, so I will research push-pull amps that use the 2A3 tubes. I see a lot of folks are using vintage Scott equipment; is the older stuff quiter that the new stuff?

[Triode Pete]

Calvin,

Sounds like you need some vibration dampening material on your chassis. Black Hole, Dynamat, etc. self-sticking sheets will work. They use a lot of this stuff at auto sound places to dampen trunks on "boom-boom" automobiles. Your tubes may also be "microphonic" or just plain noisy. That may be another source of the noise problem. Try switching to a different tube manufacturer (I find NOS American, British, Dutch or German tubes the best).

"I see a lot of folks are using vintage Scott equipment; is the older stuff quiter that the new stuff?"

I have a old Fisher 500C receiver (7591A output tubes) hooked to Klipsch Heresy's at my folks home in upstate NY. Those Heresy's are silent at idle & between notes. I prefer the sound of this push-pull 1960's receiver to some SET amps, especially on Heresy's (which lack some bass response).

Try to listen to some vintage stuff. I really like 7591A -based vintage push-pull gear (such as the MC 225) on Klipschorns. Beautiful sound from quiet, vintage amps. The good vintage stuff really used quality iron (& lots of it)!

Have fun & enjoy,

Pete

[sunnysal]

Calvin, PP 2A3 amps are kinda hard to find these days...Sun makes one I think, Jeff Lessard made me one. I think that Jeff Korneff makes one as well. Vintage amps like those from Brook or WE are expremely hard to find. I think that the el84 vintage amps may be a good choice for you...BUT...you were asking about tube preamps...It, as always, depends on budget...I would look at offerings from the following: In the under $2,000 category look at used Cary, new Wright, used Conrad Johnson, new lessard, used audio research. If you have bigger bucks look at the new McIntosh tube pre, new Cary, new CJ, Hovland, BAT. warm regards, tony

[Colin]

If money was not a criteriaWHOA! What a minute! Money is ALWAYS a criteria. That is why tweaking audiophiles deal with hot, inefficient, inaccurate, low power, poor specifications, old designs, heavy transformers, decaying parts, bulky size, air cooling space, different cables, scratchy knobs and starting prices higher than SS for tube equipment.

If money was not an issue, I would be perfectly happy with the mammoth size and output of the Nelson Pass X250 super amplifier with 75-watts of Class A and 250 watts of Class AB of ultra clean and silent power. At $4,000 used, this juggernaut does everything well. There may be slight differences with better amplifiers, but you cant tell me those differences add up to a half point, on a scale where Stereophile recommended loudspeakers score 8s and 9s.

Since the moola is an issue, if I lined up best sounding amplifiers by price, some of the lowest cost models, with the most delicate and detailed renditions, would be the flea-powered 2A3 amplifiers. In fact, with super-sensitive horns, many of the best sounding, 2-channel amplifiers, ranked by price, would used tube models. Compared to my Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours on my big old horns, the mighty Pass X250 isnt necessarily incredibly better, but it does retail for almost ten times the price.

So then in lies the problem. Given the enticing sonic capabilities of the 2A3 bottle, if one wanted to tap into these superb charms, one needs something that very few tweaking audiophiles have a large and wide compression mid-range driver, matched with a tweeter, plus a very efficient and quick, large folded horn woofer, quite flat frequency response with a dynamic attention to detail that comes from incredible ultra-sensitivity (better than 100dB)!

In other words, you need something like a Khorn in order to enjoy a flea-powered 2A3 Wellborne or Wright Sound amplifier. Dont worry about the rock n roll, at the 110dB that these big old horns can pump into a room, nobody will notice that the flea-power; and you can always serve up the beef with powerful SS subwoofers.

Otherwise, if you want to be frugal about it, I would consider 1) the $99 ASK Wave 8s, 2) refurbished Dynaco or EICO amplifiers from NOS 3) Scott integrateds from NOS 4) new ASL and Jolida integrateds. You see, he whispered softly, lest anyone perceive him rude: horns love tubes.

[Taylorshop]

Colin

First of all thanks for the infomation and advice. It seem everything still points to 2A3 amps. Secondly, let me be the first to say "DOLLARS" really matters in my household, for my hobby! My Citation XX amp (92lbs) is really a very good amp, so it's here to stay. So that don't leave a lot of room (money) to invest in a better tube pre and tube amp(s). So, some of the vintage stuff my be my better option. Once I get everything worked out with the K-horns, then I will know exactly what to do for my Cornwalls I in rear.

[Chris Robinson]

Colin, nice post. Enjoyed that one.

Taylorshop (or is it Tailors Hop?) ... You mentioned you wanted to do double-duty between home theater and 2-channel. If that is a "need" and not a "want", then I think you're going to wander down the Denon/Outlaw SS road. For movies it will sound fine; for 2-channel, you'll be left wanting a lot more.

I had a similar conundrum myself when gutting my family room to start over from scratch. I dreamed of Klipschorns in corners, Belle in the center, Cornwalls rears, etc. But the bottom line was that the SS processor of the Denon (or HT receiver of choice) was going to dictate downstream sound. Not that this is a bad thing; these HT receivers are very feature-packed multi-channel amps for the price. But the music -- when you just want to listen to music -- sounds flat and a bit colored.

I went through this debate with myself 1000 times and decided that you can't mix HT and 2-channel and do it right. 2-channel deserves a separate listening environment if you can find one. Klipschorns need good corners and a biggish room to breath into. It's like making Chicken Marbella and meatloaf. They're both tasty but have completely different natures. The Marbella is articulated details, a palette of different tastes; meatloaf makes you feel good and well-loved. (Yes, I know I need a shrink.)

So I got my Klipschorns and started the dance.

(1) I started with a McIntosh MC2105, 100W per channel of very clean SS power. Nice! Then I sold that wanting more.

(2) Next up was the Cary/AES SuperAmp, 15W of triode-wired PP KT-88. Nice but a bid "incisive" as Dean calls it. Good description! I sold that.

(3) Next up was the Eico HF-81 vintage (1959) integrated PP Williamson circuit. Unbelievable sound, especially after Craig (NOS) replaced the caps and swapped out some bad tubes, added Telefunkens, etc. I've since upgraded the main caps to Solens and they're wonderful. This amp is currently attached to my Klipschorns and I'm not wanting much anymore.

(4) After the Eico entered the stable, I found a pair of Wright 3.5W 2A3's for a very good price and connected them to my AES AE-3 6SN7-based pre-amp with oil caps. Good God! All the best of the Eico and one level of lush midrange and tight bass better. Goosebump territory when listening to all kinds of music: jazz, classical, rock, pop, R&B, etc. (These are back with George Wright now for a once over; I'm the third owner and I distrusted a few mods the previous owner made and wanted to be sure. Sure enough, George said some mistakes were made and he's finishing the "factory fresh" touches).

(5) SET is the way to go for 2-ch with Klipschorns ... for me anyway. Who would have thought that 3W of nice 2A3 SET power could be so nice? In fact, I was talking with Jeff Lessard who made me a new Pantheon pre-amp (tube rectified with all the "ultimate" parts) and I have a hot-rodded pair of his special Horus SET's on order. It's employing Parafeed and cobalt technology with nickel chokes. I'm tired of the upgrade dance and just decided to go with the best possible without going nuts and buying a pair of $15,000 amps.

So the bottom line to all this is that it has been a journey and I've collected some very lovely equipment along the way. I will be selling both the un-Godly beautiful sounding Wrights and my precious Eico HF-81 probably in June. If anybody wants to put dibs in on either of these, please let me know. I'd be happy with either for life if it weren't for this upgrade disease.

Oh, and my lovely AE-3 will be going as well given the Pantheon pre- is about to be put into duty. Jeff is doing a few final tweaks to get it totally in phase with the Horus'.

Safe travels down the audio path. Smell the flowers along the way!

[dbflash]

If you were using this for 2 channel only the Wrights would be great for the type music you are listening to.

The problem is you also want to use this for HT.

There are tube processors, but they must cost alot because not that many people are buying them.

Amps and pre amps have a bigger following so the prices are lower.

If at all possible try and go for two systems. Use the Khorns and tubes for 2 channel. Get another system for HT.

A HT using Khorns will be awesome, but if you want to go tubes for this the tube processoer and at least 5 tube amps is going to cost.

Good Luck in your quest.

Danny

[Chris Robinson]

Danny, you just said in four sentences what I blabbed on about for four paragraphs. You are a smart man