Cuffclean Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 I have always dreamed of one day owning a Vintage Tube Amp & Pre-Amp set-up. I am considering either the McIntosh MC 225/C20 or the Marantz 8B/7C. I have never had the pleasure of hearing either. Canvassing the audio boards reveals that either set-up will provide the superior - warm/3D classic tube sound I enjoy. I have a great passion for music and was a former percussionist. My listening taste is primarily smooth jazz, female vocals, gospel, and some classical. My current set-up is a Jolida 502B converted to triode with: Hexfred fast recovery diodes, Jensen PIO caps, Dact CT1 100K Attentuator, Tant resistors, etc; Ah! Tjoeb '99 CDP; and Klipsch Cornwall II's. I now seek to upgrade my amp which brings me to this board for consultation in that I do have budget constraints. Firstly, which offers the greater value at current market price points, the Marantz or McIntosh set-up? Which has nicer sound (I know this is rather subjective)? What are current market prices for mint or near-mint units for either set-ups: AudioClassics.com seeks $5000 for a S1 condition MC 225 this is difficult for me to swallow. In fact, it kinda has me choked up to be honest. I like the look of the McIntosh equipment and the reviews are great. What can I expect to realistically spend to obtain one of these beauties? Same questions for the C20 Pre-amp. I have read that the Japanese market has scarfed up vintage American audio equipment which makes mint condition acquisition difficult for American purist. Gosh, I wish I could run into a garage or estate sale and strike gold. All I seek is to pair really good music with excellent vintage equipment of the 50's where tubes were King. What I need is practical advice and direction from real professionals. Hence, I am knocking on you door. I live in Dallas, TX and await your saged advice. Please help. Thank you........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Here is an MC 225 at AudiogoN. I don't know anything about this particular amp or seller, I just noticed the ad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobLikesTubes Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 I know you stated you were looking at "classic" tubes, but I would highly recommend a visit to http:www.decware.com and check out some of Steve Deckert's designs. I own a pair of the SE-84C-Selects with a pair of Cornwall IIs, and the music in my room has never been better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted June 29, 2003 Author Share Posted June 29, 2003 Hey Edster00, Thanks for the reply. I had already looked at the Audiogon ad and e-mailed Sonny. I was concerned about the condition of that unit (dings/blemishes) and he isn't flexible on the price according to his response. On another note I noticed you are running the Moondogs with a Syrah Pre. Sounds like an awesome set-up. I think Mobile Homeless also runs the Moondogs. I have considered these also but they don't pop up often for sale. Also I've yet to hear them. Allan Songer is a big fan of the MC30 monoblocks. I was curious about these in contrast with the MC225's. I guess my fundamental dilemna is: MC225's, MC30's, Marantz 8B's, or Moondogs. I have also wondered about the Jeff Koreneff 45's. With the Cornwall's sensitivity, there are many good options available. Not having all these various units available at one sitting to do an A/B comparision is pretty dang difficult; it's almost like a leap of faith. It is my hope to obtain the best sonics and value for a $3000 budget for both amp & pre. Perhaps, this is unrealistic. Hence, my pursuit of much sought after counsel on this board. Further advice???? Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Cuffclean, I highly recommend the Moondogs (if you can find them) or another great option would be the Wright 2A3 amps. RobLikesTubes suggestion of the Decware amps might work well for you also, and they have a 30 day "most of your" money back trial period. I had the Decware Signature Select amps for 29 days driving a pair of Cornwalls, I loved their sound but they just didn't have enough oomph for me, YMMV of course. As for the 45 tube, my latest amp acquisition is a pair of Jean-Francois Lessard's Horus mono-blocks utilizing cobalt OPT/parafeed design. I was going to have the Horus built using the 45 tube but I decided the 45 just wouldn't supply enough power even for my K-horns. The cobalt/parafeed Horus using the 2A3 tube are incredible amps, IMHO, displaying a speed and transparency that I haven't heard before...a smooth and dynamic sound from top to bottom. JFL may not be making them anymore (other qualified builders might be persuaded), but they are pretty pricey with the cobalt OPTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted June 29, 2003 Author Share Posted June 29, 2003 Edster00, Hmmm.......so another twist to the audio matrix??? So are you ruling out the vintage direction of Mac's & Marantz? I have thought about low powered SET amps such as 45's, 2a3's, or 300B's. The Moondogs may be difficult to find. I've wondered if the 45's lack sufficient power to drive the Cornwalls. I sense that you feel this is the case. Is there a reason why you haven't considered the MC30 or MC225 Macs or 8B Marantz? What made you opt for the Horus in addition to your Moondogs? Aren't they both 2a3's? Currently. I am not in position to purchase multiple Amps to build a collection. I merely seek to real nice upgrade to acheive the aureal cream. Perhaps, later I can experiment. Right now I need to make a really significant upgrade leap with moderate expense and tremendous value. Would you say the Horus is the answer to this quest? I haven't heard of these before and I've been lurking on most boards for quite awhile. What prompted this foray, in that the Moondogs are considered sonically primo? Is there a Horus link you could provide? Have you considered Wavelength Labs? Mucho choices, tight constraints.....need correct decision as other financial priorities dictate a prudent decision I will have to live with for a few years. Your thoughts??? Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohead Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Cuffclean, What type of music do you mainly listen to because that should make a HUGE difference in the type of amps you are looking at? The MC30's and MC225 are excellent amps although I am partial to the MC240 as you can see in my sig. The reason for that is because both the MC30's and the MC240 run off the 6L6 power tube of which there are many different options to choose from. 6L6, KT66, 350B, EL37 and such can all be used in these amps to produce a variety of different outputs in sound quality. Typically the lower you go in wattage on the McIntosh power amplifiers the better the results get in sound...IMO. Also tube rectification plays a huge part in these units considering the MC30's are and the MC225, MC240, and MC275 are not. They run on a solid state rectifier bridge. With speakers as efficient as Klipsch you can and will notice the difference in sound between the tube and solid state rectified units. While not a huge difference it is definitely noticeable, especially in the midrange. I'm a McIntosh guy, as you can probably tell, so I am kind of partial and biased. I did have possession of an AES DJH AE-3 preamp and a pair of Laurels, the 300B equivilent of the Moondogs from Welborne Labs, for about a week a few months back. The clarity with SET is no doubt incredible but it wasn't to my liking personally. Perhaps later down the line I may come to appreciate that type of sound but right now I'm in love with dynamics. I really enjoy the added "power" I feel from the music when listening to my Mac units vs. a SET setup. The bass is more pronounced and the midrange on the Mac units is simply breathtaking IMO. Allan is a super guy in general and can provide a wealth of information regarding McIntosh units and the tubes that go with them. If you should have any other questions regarding them shoot him and/or myself a PM and we can probably help you out. There are also some other big Mac fans on this board so you should be able to find the info you are looking for from multiple sources. It is frustrating not being able to try a bunch of different setup's back to back at the same time to see which one you prefer. Either you'll have to win the lottery to do that or just take your time patiently trying out the different one's that peak your interest. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted June 29, 2003 Author Share Posted June 29, 2003 Radiohead, Thanks for the reply and great post. As to you question regarding musical taste, I am a former percussionist. I played drums for a lot of years in my youth having a number of bands. These days, I typically listen to smooth jazz, female vocals, gospel, and some classical. Primarily, I'm a jazz nut. Hope this helps you in your recommendations. I've had my Jolida 502B converted to triode, hence I prefer the EL-34 sound from the slam of the 6550's. This why I was considering the Marantz 8B. Not having heard the various tubes available with the MC30's, MC225's, or the MC240's; perhaps I missing something that may offer me better sonics. What was your take on the MC 225's? There been a lot of favorable press on these as well as the MC 30 monos. What was the compelling reason why you choose the MC 240's. Please explain the differences and benefits of tube rectification versus SS rectifers. I can only assume that tube is holographically nicer. Thus would the MC 30's be an improvement. Songer runs these. Your equipment listing shows both MC30's & MC240's. Why is the MC 240's on the sidelines and the MC 30's paired with the Khorns? Do you know of anyone who has compared the Moondogs to the MC30's? Appreciate your assistance and answers. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 I wouldn't rule out the vintage Macs or Marantz at all, I just got off on the Moondog & 45 tube aspect of your questions . I love vintage products, many of my sources are vintage Mac. My only experience with Mac amps/pres was of the SS variety MC2105 amp/C32 preamp which I had driving Forte's and later Cornwalls. I liked the sound but they lacked clarity to me, and I started looking into tubes. At the time I thought Mac tube amps were out of my price range so I went the Jolida, Decware and Antique Sound Labs route. One day I saw the Moondogs on AudiogoN and blew my budget and took a leap of faith. I really like the 2A3 tube and when I had to opportunity to get the Horus I took another leap of faith. When I retire (eventually) I will have two 2 channel systems so now I have them both covered amp-wise (Moondogs/Horus) and speaker-wise (K-horns/vertical horned Cornwalls). I know nothing about amp/circuit design. I ended up with the Horus based on what has been said on this forum (and a few other places). One link I can provide to Horus info is at the DIY section on the Magnequest web site as Magnequest is the manufacturer of the cobalt output transformers. Perhaps others here will chime in as well on the benefits of this design (Erik or leok). If and when I get another tube amp(s) I will probably look for a pair of MC30s or 40s as I am partial to mono-blocks. I also have a Monarchy SM-70 that I love and is the best bang for the buck SS amp I have heard to date (when mated with efficient speakers). Keep us posted on your search, I am sure others will chime in and add their comments. Allan Songerand guy landau are real Mac aficionados! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Please disregard, I got my previous post to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Just running up the post count (not)! Technical problems from two posts up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuffclean Posted June 29, 2003 Author Share Posted June 29, 2003 Edster00, Can I assume you haven't heard the MC30's or MC225's in your system. If you have compared these, then with only one final choice.........what is your preference(MC30 or MC225 versus Moondogs or Horus 2a3's)??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 Don't those Marantz 8b amps go for like $8000.00? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted June 29, 2003 Share Posted June 29, 2003 I have not heard either Mac amp in my system so I can't compare them to the amps I have heard. Check out DeangG's Less parts = better? thread...I know he loves those Quicksilvers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Turner Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 I've been using a MC225 with my Cornwalls for the past 2 years and I've been very pleased with the sound. I chose this amp because when I first heard the Cornwalls at Hillcrest High Fidelity in the mid 70's they were paired with the 225. Perhaps I'm clouded by nostalgia but I've not read or heard anything bad about this amp...it consistently gets very good to excellent reviews. The only other vintage Mac amp I've consistently seen reviewed better is the MC60 monoblock. While I'm not a technically astute audiophile, I do know this pairing sounds great with old vinyl (Rock, Jazz, Blues, Classical - no country) and Cornwalls. 1976 Cornwalls ALK crossovers Stax Lambda Signature earspeakers SRM T1 tube driver Rega P25 turntable Benz Micro H2 cartridge McIntosh MC225 amplifier McIntosh C15 McIntosh MR71 tuner DIY 89259 cross-connect speaker cable DIY Superlatives interconnects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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