pinipig523 Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 oh yes power does play a BIG role. think about it. if the system requires more power, then a slight alteration of resistance will play big role in how much power actually reaches the speaker (from the receiver/source). if the system requires little power then that means that a smaller voltage runs through the circuit, less current, and thus, resistance plays a smaller role. oxidation = added resistance. what really matters in terms of resistance is the length of the wire and the cross-sectional area of the wire - which is exactly why larger wires (smaller gauge) are much more desirable for high powered, hi-fi audio setups. think of it this way. say the promedias current is a bicycle. and an rf-7 is a car. put them both in a small road with a lot of traffic. although the bike is hindered, it would still be able to manuever quite well, the car however, has to wait in line (bumper to bumper). now place them both in a two-lane road - the bike achieves pretty much top-speed here, whereas the car (rf-7) doesnt - it still too small a road (you dont drive 80 mph on a two lane rural road do you?). now, put them both on an expressway - the bike wont go any faster here than it did on the two-lane road. BUT... the car is gonna be free as a bird! crude example, but hey... its 2am and im going to bed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Gotta hand it to the guy, he's fiercely confident in his decision. No harm in being absolutely certain in ones opinions I guess. It's ok anyhow, I expected the people who've spent too much on cables to quickly defend themselves with someone elses techno babble and everyone is entitled to their opinions anyhow. I know what I read on my meter (0-100 ohm range) and what I saw with my own eyes (hazel brown) and that is all that is important to me here. If you really believe your "upgrades" have made a "sonic" difference then great for you, you can now justify your $59.99 (plus tax) purchase in your own mind. All those who want to look at things from a realistic view, don't waste money on cables. As long as the ones you have are not broken they will function as the manufacturer intended. I've learned my lesson... if you want better sound, get better equipment..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseChaser Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 ---------------- On 7/27/2003 2:29:10 AM iXtreme wrote: Gotta hand it to the guy, he's fiercely confident in his decision. No harm in being absolutely certain in ones opinions I guess. It's ok anyhow, I expected the people who've spent too much on cables to quickly defend themselves with someone elses techno babble and everyone is entitled to their opinions anyhow. ---------------- it would suit you better to actually make a case of your opinion than your sense of sarcasm. I am a believer in placebo effect and maybe you did convince yourself into hearing improvements after spending "too much money on cables", how you felt about buying and installing the cable doesn't apply to everyone else. maybe you did spend more money than you should have, and maybe you did want to hear the improvements... but that's just you. "Gotta hand it to the guy, he's fiercely confident in his decision.", what decision? I was making a logical case against placebo effect. I had and still have no reason to justify spending money that I earned on whatever the hell I feel like spending on. I spend more than $59.99 and that's not something I need to justify myself about to be comfortable. once again, you assume things that doesn't necessarily apply to anyone except you. who's "being absolutely certain" here, I am still waiting for you to make a case of your own and explain yourself on the figures and facts(or as you call them, "techno babble") you provided earlier. even if I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I don't have anything to learn from you. get off the attitude and try to make some sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Not sure I follow you here. "I am a believer in placebo effect and maybe you did convince yourself into hearing improvements after spending "too much money on cables", how you felt about buying and installing the cable doesn't apply to everyone else." I didn't buy the cables guy... try to keep up here ok.... "Gotta hand it to the guy, he's fiercely confident in his decision.", what decision?" His decision that his upgrade made an actual difference. The next few parts don't make any sense at all, your not very coherent but such is life on forums. I need not make a case further than I have to you or anyone, just hoping I can save someone some hard earned cash on making a wasteful purchase. If you don't agree, thats fine... I honestly don't care..... but don't try to convince others to spend on wasteful things by your replys. My last comment is all that really matters... you want better sound, get better equipment. There is NO way to argue that. *edit* I just figured out why your so against what I'm trying to do here. You TOO wasted your money on the MC upgrade. Now that is funny! I'd love to see any of you guys with the "upgrade" sucessfully pass my test I mentioned earlier. Get someone to wire only one of your sats with MC and the rest with stock wires and when playing your favorite tune pick out the one that has MC while blindfolded so you don't accidently see the wires. You'd only pick it out if you had a lucky guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseChaser Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 ---------------- On 7/27/2003 4:03:50 AM iXtreme wrote: but don't try to convince others to spend on wasteful things by your replys. *edit* I just figured out why your so against what I'm trying to do here. ---------------- so "what you are trying to do here" is worthy but not those that disagree with you? anyways, here's something to think about. I like your style... not really. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=21766&forumID=88&catID=21&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={D00DAF4D-EFD1-401E-A35B-2132DA24F50C} ---------------- On 7/5/2001 12:23:00 AM iXtreme wrote: I think your talking out of your butt again. Making a cable and connector change will for sure make a difference, maybe small but still a difference. Pure OFC cable has less resistance throughout making signal transfer easier. Adding 24K pins to the sub end keeps bare wire from eventaully tarnishing so hence a better connect in the long run. Better 1/8 jacks are way better machined to fit the socket better thus a better contact with less oxygen inside. You want stories... here's one..... the gravel road will get you there sure but it's dirty and bumpy. The paved road is clean and smooth. Remember, your opinion is just that, your opinion. These are the facts, the better the signal path, the better the signal at the end product. Less work for the amp to push thru... less resistance from poor wires. Wires actually have to be balanced ect.... I changed my wires and connects today and there IS a difference, the mids actually move now... with factory wires they never moved. There's your proof that it does make a diff. ---------------- ---------------- On 7/5/2001 4:24:00 PM iXtreme wrote: Personally i think that someguy is a blowhard. How is it physically possible to take factory small gauge wires and replace them with heavier better quality copper wiring and terminate them with better ends and get no difference. That is impossible to not get a difference. Klipsch uses better wire on their new reference design but i guess you know better than their engineers with 50+ years experience. And you may think their crappy computer speakers but they are NOT ht and compared to all other P.C. speakers out there these very high end, if not the top end. You sound disgruntled... seems as if life came along and took a big meaty dump on you. Take care and ease up will ya' while I enjoy my life. If what you were saying <u>WERE</u> true, then Lucasfilm specs for THX systems and theaters as well as reference Acoustic Research and Monster Cable to name a few would all be con- artists. Personally I like the quality of all three so I somehow think your a bit off center here. Standard speaker wire is not 99% true copper too, it's mixed with tin where as quality OFC has no tin content and therefore better conductivity. To make a connect oxygen and tarnish free requires more than solder, the connect must distort the two metals together (pin and speaker cable) This the only <u>true</u> oxygen free connect and pressure crimping 24K pins to copper wire does just that. That and an amplifier only pushes the power that the volume control knob tells it to do, so..... better wires (more conductivity) would be less work for an amplifier as the amplifier would try just as hard to push 300 watts thru bad wire as good wire. Resistance makes heat. As you know, you can neither create nor destroy energy, just change it so, better wire=better sound=better conductivity and a cooler amp. You are right that the sub should have heatsinks and fans.... totally right on there, but better wire and connects can not hurt anything and will give some improvement, maybe small as I said but it WILL be better. No need to respond to this as we don't agree, never will and thats fine with me. I have my now moving mids as proof that it did something. Perhaps you saw no difference cause you did a crappy job at the upgrade?? This message has been edited by iXtreme on 07-05-2001 at 04:34 PM ---------------- ---------------- On 7/6/2001 2:27:00 AM iXtreme wrote: To clarify, the distortion of metals is simply put. If you had two pieces of sheet metal, say 12" x 12" each and hit them together on end they would cut into each other. If at the point of deepest cut you could pause that you'd find no oxygen. As it has been forced out by the marrige of the two pieces under force. Oh, and I placed my digital multimeter on two pieces of wire, each exactly the same length at 10ft. One wire was my upgrade and the other was none other than the factory Klip wire. I must attest first that both wires were tested to see if they work and both do. The ohm reading test showed 0.1 for the Klips and 0.00 for my upgrade. Negligible yes, but different none the less. I then hooked the right rear on Klip wire and the left rear on my upgrade wire, the right rear had no mid-range speaker movement and the left did. So I took out the Klip wire and put my upgrade back on and restarted the song. (the song was Slow and Low by the B. Boys) Well..... the movement came back on the right rear mid-range. That can't be blamed on faulty wire from Klip as sound does transfer thru them. My diagnosis, the upgrade did some good, no!!?? How can you argue that except to disbelieve. All this is here to do is prove that your theory on no change what-so-ever is not accurate. I may not have all the knowlege you do but it bugs you that a rookie like me had a disagreement with you and was right. Next I guess your going to tell me that line level interconnects don't make any difference like S-Video and digital coaxial RCA's. My video switch box allows me to switch between single RCA video wire to S-Video and although the sharpness stays the same the colors are more vivid and rich. Cables make a difference period. This message has been edited by iXtreme on 07-06-2001 at 02:30 AM ---------------- ---------------- On 7/8/2001 11:43:00 PM iXtreme wrote: TeeHee, As we all can see... the ever intelligent someguy has been telling us that cables are not important, but that buying better speakers like the crossfires are the answer. Here is a quote from the review/manual for the crossfires. The manual is very very uninformative but here goes: ------------------------------------------------------- The speaker wire that is included is first quality. Some other manufacturers forget to include low resistance wires. A high resistance can result in a loss of audio quality. The relative resistance of the given lengths of wire (8m sections for the rear channels and 2m for the sub and 2 front channels) are: 8m (26.6ft) : 1.95 Ohms x 2 pieces 2m (6.6ft) : 0.5 Ohms x 3 pieces All of the dual RCA phono to 1/8" jack connectors are gold plated for minimal interference. Gold has a an extremely low temperature coefficient of 0.0034 while copper has a temperature coefficient of 0.00393. All coefficients are taken at 20C. Some people cry if they do not have digital outputs. For a loosely engineered speaker system digital outputs would be beneficial. For impeccably engineered products, like the Sirocco Crossfire, digital outputs are something that you do not need as the degradation of audio quality is minimal through the use of premium audio connectors and low resistance speaker cables. ------------------------------------------------------- HeHeHe, maybe you should go tell them they are wrong too. All these stupid A** manufacturers and speaker cable companies. Who woulda thought you'd out smart em' all. You may think that this is just a review and the reviewers are wrong... THEN my un-informed friend... WHY do they package special wiring if it really dosen't matter what is being used as long as it's not defective? Here is the url if you'd like to re read what I have posted. Man I hate being so right all the time http://216.37.9.58/ubb/smilies/Smile.gif"> http://www.bxboards.com/siroccocrossfire.shtml This message has been edited by iXtreme on 07-08-2001 at 11:47 PM ---------------- ---------------- On 7/9/2001 1:52:00 AM iXtreme wrote: You missed my point totally, it easily 747'd you. He was claming that wires have no effect, and to go buy quality speakers like the videologic's if you want a smoother response overall. My point was that HIS claimed better speakers use "better" than normal wires too, arn't these a product he said was useless unless you had some really high end HT speakers or original defective wires? If they were not really needed then why god, oh why do they ship with these. And sirroccos are by no means true HT quality so they too would be cheap speakers no? I can see what the problem is now though, ANYONE upset about the wire-mod either (a)did it wrong, or (b)spent way too much money to make the semi transparent improvement worth it. I however fall under neither of these as I am a shrewd dealer in the electronics store http://216.37.9.58/ubb/smilies/Smile.gif"> No really.... I got my Pro's for an astounding $345.46 CD dollars taxes in ($226.84 US) after the buffalo bucks purchase(too long a story for here) and my interconnects at 24K for pins and 16ga. OFC cabling for under $10 Canadian. I'd respend all of it in a second. As well I have a few audio installers who could care less about how much was spent as they are paid hourly for installs only who say they also know of the benefits of better connects. Take a peek at most if not all sub boxes, tower speakers and any other high power audio product... they all have big connectors and they are all gold plated...... maybe there is something there that you refuse to see. This message has been edited by iXtreme on 07-09-2001 at 02:05 AM ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 I like how you think you "got one over on me" or something. Like I commented in my first reply on this topic, I TOO MADE THE MISTAKE OF CABLE PLACEBO and am hoping whenever I see someone else doing it or about to do it... maybe I can save someone some money, but you guys seem so rich you can afford it anyhow. At least I'm honest enough with myself to realize the lack of difference between the two wires. I used to believe in cables very very strongly but since I hooked mine up temp with stock for awhile I now know they were a waste of my money. Do what you like and spend what you like but remember if you want better sound... get better equipment. At least I know that my "upgrade" did not cost me anywhere near what you guys spent and it was a cheaper lesson to learn. You guys should really try my test honestly and see what comes of it. Or keep believing you honestly hear a difference with your pc speakers, I wish I had listened to that "someguy" a long time ago and went out to use that money originally for cables on better equipment. I'm going outside now to put bigger tires on my car because they'll connect better to the road and surely make my car go faster and if I add more washer fluid to the resevoir I'll get better bass too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseChaser Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 ---------------- On 7/27/2003 4:13:17 PM iXtreme wrote: I like how you think you "got one over on me" or something. ---------------- ya and I like how you just edited your post which took a whole new tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 bleh..... I keep tossin em, you keep missin em. bleh... if you want better sound, get better equipment.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 You still haven't commented on my repeatings in my posts. First is if you want better sound, get better equipment and second you haven't said anything about my test. What gives? You guys are so quick to attack, none of my posts attack anyone directly except the cable makers who rip people off, just simply state do what you like, spend what you like but.... (refer to bold text above). Attack all you like, I understand... your Americans. Hehehehe, there's a whole new can of worms all opened up..... lol..... Americans are great, just gonna drop some bombs and that'll take care of the new mess America is in. Next mess, more bombs, mess after that, more bombs...... This is fun... please reply to this one. I am having so much fun here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseChaser Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 ---------------- On 7/27/2003 5:38:20 PM iXtreme wrote: if you want better sound, get better equipment ---------------- no joke, is that suppose to make a point? the point of this discussion is whether better equipment, specifically cables result in audible improvements. and what is there to be said about your test? it's no different than when you first installed the cable upgrade. you put them on and listened. I'd ask you to do an A/B test if I actually took you seriously. but I guess it would be pointless because you are already so firm on that issue, the placebo effect would kick in, right? if you think to discredit others with it, it applies to you all the same. ---------------- On 7/27/2003 5:38:20 PM iXtreme wrote: What gives? You guys are so quick to attack, none of my posts attack anyone directly except the cable makers who rip people off, just simply state do what you like, spend what you like but.... (refer to bold text above). Attack all you like, I understand... your Americans. Hehehehe, there's a whole new can of worms all opened up..... lol..... Americans are great, just gonna drop some bombs and that'll take care of the new mess America is in. Next mess, more bombs, mess after that, more bombs...... This is fun... please reply to this one. I am having so much fun here. ---------------- are you talking about gabriel now? who knows how old she is but I can't speak for her. yes, you didn't DIRECTLY insult anyone until now but as soon as I disagreed with you, you took on a defensive tone. "I'm going outside now to put bigger tires on my car because they'll connect better to the road and surely make my car go faster and if I add more washer fluid to the resevoir I'll get better bass too." "I just figured out why your so against what I'm trying to do here. You TOO wasted your money on the MC upgrade. Now that is funny!" hmmmm, laughing AT someone is not a personal attack? did you think you were being clever plugging subtle sarcasm here and there? by no means, was my original post in any way attacking you. I'd have appreciated a further thoughts on your part, but you lost your objectivity. you also wrote, "No harm in being absolutely certain in ones opinions I guess. It's ok anyhow, I expected the people who've spent too much on cables to quickly defend themselves with someone elses techno babble and everyone is entitled to their opinions anyhow." techno babble, huh... you were quoted as saying, "Oh, and I placed my digital multimeter on two pieces of wire, each exactly the same length at 10ft. One wire was my upgrade and the other was none other than the factory Klip wire. I must attest first that both wires were tested to see if they work and both do. The ohm reading test showed 0.1 for the Klips and 0.00 for my upgrade. Negligible yes, but different none the less. I then hooked the right rear on Klip wire and the left rear on my upgrade wire, the right rear had no mid-range speaker movement and the left did. So I took out the Klip wire and put my upgrade back on and restarted the song. (the song was Slow and Low by the B. Boys) Well..... the movement came back on the right rear mid-range. That can't be blamed on faulty wire from Klip as sound does transfer thru them." and you recented stated that, "Do yourself a favor and save the money for something else. Sounds negative I know, but it's the truth. 24 ga. wire will have the same resistance of 0.00 ohms on the multimeter as will 2 ga. wire." "One more thing, we have 1000 ft. wooden spools of old cat 3 wire at my work which is I believe 26 ga. I tested the resistance of the wire to see if distance makes a difference. I got a 0.00 on the multimeter over 1000 ft. Not even 1/100 of an ohm of resistance over that 1000 feet." you are contradicting yourself. I attacked you because I am an American? be sure to let me know your nationality before you completely embarrass yourself out of this forum. by the way, I am not an american. a bit childish stab nontheless, don't you think so knowing most of members are Americans? well, ramble on as long as you are having so much fun. what's next, a spell check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 Man you make long posts...... lifes too short to read it all. I'm done here... I'll go get you a towel.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseChaser Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 ---------------- On 7/27/2003 7:12:06 PM iXtreme wrote: I'm done here... ---------------- works for me, bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted July 27, 2003 Share Posted July 27, 2003 You have single handedly proven it dosen't pay to try and help anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FightingChance Posted August 3, 2003 Share Posted August 3, 2003 "Premium" cable has often been outed as a big fallacy that exists merely to help line the pockets of enthusiast level audio makers. However, this runs directly contrary to guy's attachment to 'more expensive is better'. Then again, everyone's ears are different, so technically we'll never know the truth because there's no baseline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Someone needs to close this. This is turning into a flamewar, and I've seen absolutely no evidence of a blindfolded test with proper cirumstances (music and such), which is almost REQUIRED in an argument like this. Drop it guys, it's your own decisions and if you're happy, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2v Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 I spent ~$14 bucks on some 16 guage and gold plated mini connectors from radio shack and did the whole operation myself. Not only does it look a lot nicer, but it did improve the quality of sound. I'm no audiophile and I don't have a trained ear or anything, but I did notice a difference. $14 bucks worth...maybe. I certainly wouldn't have spent $60 plus though to achieve the same effect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 no doubt there is a difference when you use larger wire. i was at tweeter and the guy showed me a unique setup. it was a pair of rf-3II and both were hooked up to the same receiver. one had a 22 gauge wire and the other was hooked via a 14 gauge wire. he played the pair and i could definitely tell THERE WAS A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE! The speaker hooked with the 22 gauge sounded held-back and muffled, whereas the other had a huge soundstage and was clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD1032 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 Maybe the wires were rigged (the 22 guage was made of cheaper materials). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 nonono. md, the main reason for larger wires is because it yields less resistance. this is the formula for resistance ® as it relates to length (L), Cross-sectional area (A), and the internal resistivity of a material(i.e. copper is more conductive than steel, r): R = rL/A which means that the longer the wire - the MORE the resistance. and the larger the cross-sectional area, the LESS the resistance. so, since audio output to speakers are sent as current of a give power (depending on the volume/amp) then the less the resistance - the more accurate is the the speaker's replication. thats all - but the end result is dependent also on the speaker used and the power at which it is driven. it is more noticeable when a large speaker is used and driven loud rather than a small multimedia speaker played softly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinipig523 Posted August 11, 2003 Share Posted August 11, 2003 and the 22 gauge wasnt of cheaper materials - both were see-through and i could see that both we copper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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