artto Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 ---------------- On 8/3/2003 3:01:36 PM kjohnsonhp wrote: 1. Klipch are pereived to color the sound which I've read folks on this board articulate as not neccessarily a bad thing. Others like to EQ with other items in the system...like tone controls. 2. Audiophiles like a "smooth" sound and find the Klipsch mids and highs to be harsh...there's an edge to the sound...(hard to describe but they don't seem to like the "horn" sound. Avantgarde, however, seem to have some success at sound less "horney" and getting audiophile attention. 3. Audiophiles like transparancy and imaging...the sound is not percieved to be coming from the speakers and there is a 3d image of sound. With Klipsch I hear a good center image with debth but I wouldn't say they are as transparant as say the $10k/pr mbl 300e's I heard last week or even the $2500/pr Onix Ref 2's or Monitor Audio Gold GR60's I've heard recently. I think Klipsch provides a big, live sound that can pound the walls at a great price. Klipsch Ref are appealing to some, but for others the sound just isn't pleasant so the value is lost. For them the KEF, Rocket, Paradigm, Axiom, Ascend, Polk, etc. brands at the same price as Klipsch Ref are the options. Used monster heritage speakers are a great value but have other issues (form factor, WAF, center, size, used, etc.). Klipsch have great value--especially Heritage--but if you don't like the sound then they are very quickly eliminated from a buyers shopping list. I've read a lot of newbies audition new Klipch and the perceptions are mixed as you would expect. I must say Klipch seems to generate a stronger pro or con opinion than other brands. My perception is that the modern Klipch is a marketing machine with huge print advertising...one of the largest from what I've been seeing...maybe not in the highend mags like TAS or Stereophile but they recently did a multipage spread in S&V. Even in these lower price oriented and often HT focused mags the Klipsch horn gets mixed reviews. About a year ago I read a review of the RF7 and it was typical Klipsch and horn bashing despite the full page ads. For those that don't like Klipsch there are brands with value short of $20K. Here are some: * VMPS rm40 -- competes with the $20k crowd at under $5k/pr * Onix Strata (fall release) -- prettier and could be better than rm40 at $5k * GR Research Alpha -- competes with the ribbons above w/in-line array * Legacy Audio Focus 20/20 * even horns from Avantgarde * Magnepan * ML Odyessy and Descent sub (adding the sub makes this pretty expensive) In traditional designed at lower price points I like: * KEF xQ5 which is similar to their more expensive Ref203 (available discounted and notably less than KEF REF. * Onix Ref2 $2.5k ($4k in 5 piece package) * Paradigm's new Signature and Studio Ref 100's v3 * Totem Hawk The B&W N804, MA GR60's, etc. are nice but around $4k/pr. I like speakers in this class on the used market at half price. The bigger B&W and KEF really shine but they are in ~$20k range we want to avoid. In monitors I like: * mbl's * Onix Ref1 * Joseph Audio * Sonus Faber Concerto's used * Proac Tablette There's probably heeps of other speakers but these have caught my eyes and ears. I like DefTech for movies but not for music. One of my recent favorite systems was mbl 300e's with an mbl integrated ss amp. The source was a CD w/PT external DAC and interpoliation engine. This system had the transparancy, imaging, deep bass, and big live sound I love. It also had the price of a new car...about $15k after discounts. So in the end my setup seems to have a good bang for the buck. If you like Klipsch then the value is hard to beat! ---------------- kjohnsonhp, are you sure you really like Klipsch? I use Klipsch because I haven't found ANYTHING better. PERIOD. Most, if not all, of the things you mention are the result of acoustical problems (deficiencies) in the room itself. Sometimes it's the recording. Or the equipment upline. The high-end stuff ($$$$$$) is now nothing more than a co-operative marketing plan between the 'high-end audio press', 'the high-end manufacturers & their 'dealers'. "A fool & his money are quickly parted' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I was thinking of Maggies earlier today when thinking of alternatives if there were no Klipsch. As a fan of ribbon mics, I can't help but like the idea. Actually, I think PWK would have like it (at least in theory) in spite of himself. Certainly at least in tune with the 8 Card in diaphragm movement. Just seems the technology is not yet fully dekinked. Maggies make that great big transparent wall of sound you can hear right through. I was thinking the 21rst century speaker might actually be an entire room where everything but the floor is a transducer with each sound being emanated from either a cell (sort of like a pixel on an LCD, or from multiple cells depending on it's directionaly, frequency, and loudness. The floor would have a subsonic woofer built in. Now, THAT would be an audio experience. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Dave, Actually PWK did try the ribbon thing. He even tried that Ionovac plasma tweeter (or whatever it was called). From what I recall, seemed like reliability & consistency were the main issues. Dave, there's one thing I really don't like about planar or ribbon speakers, especially Maggies. We need to discuss thing. Don't have the time rt now. email me if you want. We can post the relative info (if any)later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 ---------------- On 8/5/2003 7:07:22 PM Mallett wrote: I was thinking the 21rst century speaker might actually be an entire room where everything but the floor is a transducer with each sound being emanated from either a cell (sort of like a pixel on an LCD, or from multiple cells depending on it's directionaly, frequency, and loudness. The floor would have a subsonic woofer built in. Now, THAT would be an audio experience. Dave ---------------- Dave...they're already working on it. I saw a post from some University with corporate & gov, sponsership. I'll try to find it. Actually, the concept is very similar, if not identical to, what is outlined in the original papers by Snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Man, Artto, you've got a nice system. Aside from that, I'm certainly interested in your comments on Maggies (I've never actually heard any. They just sound like a good idea and seem to have a group of adherents.), as well as the info on my fantasy audio room. I've a habit of imagining that which is just about to be realized. Wish I could turn it into cash. ;-) My wife calls me a visionary. I think it's just the leftovers from the '60's. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Dave, We should take a field trip over to north Dallas (Audio Concepts) and hear the Maggies. I think they also have Wilson and LINN. We should also visit the local Dallas speaker direct manufacturer GR Research and hear their 7' tall ALPHA line array...this kit or $5k bundles is supposed to be special--even compared to popular Ribbon speaker VMPS rm40. I've spent time with the Martin Logan Odyssey and love the mids and highs...I mean really love it...with the Descent sub they go low but don't really SLAM. They certainly can't pound out the "BEDS ARE BURNING" like those KHorns. Craig has my Scott 355 restored and ready for action...yippie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Sounds like fun, Ken. I think I am a strong enough Klipsch catholic to withstand any temptations! I haven't been in a real audio store for a long time. Actually, I wasn't really sure there were any left in DFW. I remember buying my first set of serious speakers, the Frazier Monte Carlo's. I must have went to that store 15 times before parting with three months pay for those babies. Oh well, "music will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no music." Also, got to thinking about the "fantasy audio room" above. I suppose it would be best if it was hemispherical. Sort of an audio "event horizon" based on the real world. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Our field trip will conclude at this store farther east in North Dallas...just down 635 a few more miles. www.hi-endaudio.com They like the JM Lab Electra line which is fun to hear. Of course the fancy lifestyle demo space of Hometheaterstore is fun in South Lake. They have a nice Meridian room with a $100K 5.1 setup that is worth a listen. Of course it's a lot cheaper to get a season pass to the DSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ycchan Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubinhard Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Only two ways to go with ribbons as far as I'm concerned: VMPS, or DIY with the Raven R-3. 60" tall, and you an buy it in kit form for less than $4000 -- with the new killer tweeter. I actually had these on my very short list, but went with Klipschorns instead. Weighing in at 60 lbs -- it IS the king. Only $1700 each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Hepta, Have you ever heard Adams speakers from Germany? www.adam-audio.de They use an Accelerated Ribbon technology which: QUOTE: The A.R.T. (=Accelerated Ribbon Technology) tweeters and midrange units take a completely new approach in kinematics to move air and improve the quality of music reproduction. Based on the original works of Dr. Oskar Heil, who invented his "Air Motion Transformer" back in 1972, new electroacoustic transducers have been developed that are based on improved layouts and new materials. The membrane consists of a lamella like folded diaphragm whose single folds move according to the alternate current, thus squeezing air in and out. All other loudspeaker drive units, whether they are voice coil driven, electrostatics, piezos or magnetostatics, act like a piston, moving air in a 1:1 ratio. This is undesirable, as the specific weight of air is much lower than that of the driving mechanics. Speaking in terms of electrical Engineering one could say there is a bad match between source and load. The A.R.T. principle achieves a 4:1 velocity transformation between driving diaphragm and driven air, i. e. the air moves in and out four times faster than the folds itself are moving. This superior "motor" is responsible for the enormous clarity and transient reproduction that is to be heard from the A.R.T. drive units :END QUOTE I heard them a while ago and was very impressed - especially with their smaller model (the P11A). The sound coming out of such a small, powered, box was simply amazing... Their larger model - the S7A is also mighty impressive - but I was kinda expecting that so it didnt impress as much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgb Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 I subbed to Listener for about two years I think. It was a very witty magazine with good reviews. I found they review mostly gear that was way out of my price range however. The above mentioned $20,000 tunrtbale type things. ---------------- Probably the best, no-nonsense magazine out there was Listener magazine. Unfortunately, they went out of business about a year ago. Stereophile and TAS are two "high-end" magazines, but I don't care for them much as they seem to think that the more something costs, the better it is. You don't have to spend a lot to put together an outstanding system, especially if you're willing to buy used. I used to subscribe to Stereophile, but don't anymore. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Cynically, I refer to the old political adage: Follow the money. The audio press is geared to make money, not to really find the best stuff and tell you about it. It's about getting advertising dollars NOT KNOWLEDGE. sheesh! And evidently there isn't enough money to be gained from Klipsch, i.e., they either don't advertize enough or don't have a high enough sales points for the product lines that other manufacturers do... For the money the Heritage line has the best dollar-to-performance ratio that I know of... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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