klipsch vs. the "audiophiles"

[jgatty]

I have always been impressed with klipsch speakers. However, having some disposable income, finally, I am planning a dream system. Upon looking at the speaker asylum forum, as well as the audiophile magazines, I note that klipsch is dismissed in favor of rediculously priced and usually very low efficiency speakers. Where does Klipsch fit into this scheme. I like lifelidke music, but I am not planning on going to tubes and reverting to turntables that now cost 20k and need their own DC power.

Thanks,

JG

[Mallette]

A 25.00 garage sale turntable, a decent DVD/CD player, with Rat Shack connects, any decent SS amp, and Klipsch Heritage speakers, will reproduce accurately about 98% of all the available software.

The remaining 2% will require similar ramping up to the requirements of reaching lightspeed.

JMHO.

Dave

[Audio Flynn]

20K turntables?

I got a mint JA Michell $ 2000 table only 12 years old; 5 months ago complete with everything for $ 600( off of E Bay).

Plus the VPI record cleaner and necessary extras.... $ 1200 total.

A smokin vinyl front end on the cheap!

--------------------------

SUGGESTION

Find a place to listen.

Decide what LIVE instrument you know best.

Get well produced music with that instrument prominent in the mix.

LEARN

Many musicans and audiophiles who are NOT mainstream suck ups like what Klipsch does for them in music reproduction.

The Klipsch speakers do well in HT, as well.

The 2 ojectives are as different as shooting a shotgun at birds and rifle at a deer.

----------------------

FROM AARTO

Layout of Paul Klipsch Living room, as I remeber it.

Steinway and Bosendorfer pianos

2 K Horns

One Belle Center

---------

I think PWK knew what a piano sounded like! Those are 2 of the best.

If I have my head messed up i am sure AARTO can correct me.

Good Luck in your pursuit,

Rick

[leok]

If you like "lifelike" music, and don't want to get into tubes then Magneplaners and a decent ss amp will do the trick.

If you want more than that, you can spend as much as you like. Klipsch speakers, with reasonable amplification (usually tube-based), is the least expensive step up. It's not real easy, but it sure is good.

leok

[Audio Flynn]

"A 25.00 garage sale turntable, a decent DVD/CD player, with Rat Shack connects, any decent SS amp, and Klipsch Heritage speakers, will reproduce accurately about 98% of all the available software."

any decent SS amp

SS amp with good transformers, simple signal path, and no poorly implemented ICs to cause nasties due to poor shielding...perhaps.

Mallet,

A clarification perhaps?

[Fish]

Klipsch fits in between where crappy speakers leave off and ridiculous prices start.

[Mallette]

First, AMEN to Fish.

Flynn: You have me in an area in which I claim no expertise. Seems to me you have to go out of your way to build a really crappy SS amp. Most seem to be able to put out a reasonably clean first watt or two that Klipsch needs just fine, with the better ones sounding better ;-), and tubes even better than that. I know we have amp gurus here that shudder at such statements. I salute and appreciate them.

I record. I know what it should sound like. I can always tell if the issue is the recording or the equipment. If it is the equipment, then I replace it until it sounds like the recording.

Jeez, guess that sounds simple. That's me.

Dave

[WMcD]

"Where does Klipsch fit into this."

Actually, my sister asked me where Bose fits into the hi-fi scheme. Both are fair questions.

The answer is, I think, what you actually hear.

I daresay that there is a grass roots apprection of Klipsch speakers based on what is heard. I heard the K-Horn in November 1974 and recoginized something unique. Others agree I'd think.

Some of the audio press is not kind to Klipsch. But not entirely. Much of the function of writers for the press is to sell magazines based on reviews of test samples. They only get test samples by giving glowing reviews to what manufacturers will loan them.

Reviewers in magazine vary quite a bit in technical expertise and hubris. Don Keele is a master of the technology and even handed, in my book.

On the other hand, for example, there was a review of an Impulse horn system by a fellow years ago He was very smug. Something along the lines that common electrical engineers are so, so (sniff) misled to use wide traces on p.c. boards in crossovers because obviously they fail to understand that this sort of thing is sonically detrimental. Just nutso.

He did eventually pull apart the crossover, bypass some resistors, and proclaimed them the best speakers he ever heard. So I'll give him a little credit. The merits of horns come though with mindless diddeling.

Now I'll admit I'm a bit prejudiced in favor of Klipsch products and horns. On the other hand, fans like me are not making any money off it and our jobs do not depend on being something like politicians.

Generally, the press is like any given politician. They have to kiss all and babies, and tell the mothers they are beautiful. We like living with our babies.

Regardless of the hyperbole and politics, vote with your ears.

Gil

[prodj101]

when I think of "audiophiles" who buy 20 grand speakers and talk down on klipsch and the likes, I think of someone who cares more about an image than what they actually hear. I know way too many people who listen to jazz and classical music for the image of being sophisticated, and I don't think these people are much different.

[Audio Flynn]

This is the problem.

Seems to me you have to go out of your way to build a really crappy SS amp. Most seem to be able to put out a reasonably clean first watt or two that Klipsch needs just fine, with the better ones sounding better ;-), and tubes even better than that.

Many compnaies build crummy SS amps.

It is easy for us who spewnd hundreds of hours each year to understand.

For a person who wnats to spend a piece of their disposable income and get good sound they can get bamboozled.

it is easier buying a $ 25,000 car and getting a good one than spending $ 2,500 on a stereo and getting a good one.

The industry is shamefull for some of the deceipt.

no JD Power, Car and Driver, or Ralf Nader to keep SS amp mfg honest.

Mallet,

I read too much into your thought.

[formica]

Ralf Nader? His review would read along the lines "Unsafe at any Volume"...

Any product's appeal is dependent on marketing and psychology... and seeing how far along Klipsch has come along without the "audio cable industry" trickery speaks volumes to me. They offer a reasonably priced solid product which performs very well without any "magical" technology.

[wrench_peddler]

It's kinda like when a friend of mine asked what I was going to be playing on my Scott299a tube amp and Lascal's (when I find them). "You aren't going to be playing that digital s""t". I replied no, I would record them on reel to reel and play them back just so I could look cool.

[jdm56]

Yup. I gotta agree that Fish nailed it with one line. But, I also must take off my Klipsch-fan hat long enough to say that there are other companies that also inhabit the "high value" niche of the speaker market; the area between the crap and where the law of diminishing returns starts kicking in big-time. My list? How about Polk, Definitive Technology, Magnepan, Paradigm, PSB, Infinity and B&W...for starters.

Of course, Klipsch aces them all as far as value. My humble opinion, of course.

[Deang]

I like the sound of all of those speakers for the most part, and I also agree with the comment in an earlier post saying Klipsch gets one right up to maximum performance line without going into diminshing returns.

I'm not really sure if B&W belongs on the list above, but I guess they do make some things that sound pretty good that most can afford.

There are audiophiles and then there are "audioloons", and there isn't always a correlation between the money dished out on speakers or a system and the category one falls into. Adding complexity to the issue is that we all use different criteria to decide what bracket we put a person into. I don't think cable freaks are loons, but I worry about someone when they start shelling out real money for little sticks that hold their cables up off of the floor.

We should also be careful of stereotyping the Asylum community as well. I mean, we have the High Efficiency Forum, the Tubes Forum, and the DIY Forum -- and these places are made up of some well grounded people.

It's now pretty much common knowledge regarding the relationship between magazine reviewers and manufacturers. It's a double edged sword here. Though it's hard to find a "bad" review -- this relationship has to exist for the industry to perpetuate itself. We wouldn't know about most things if it weren't for the magazines. The "High" High End has brought us some good stuff along with the goofball stuff -- we just need to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

The reason Klipsch isn't reviewed or accepted by the "High End" elitists isn't because the speakers don't sound good -- but because PK wouldn't kiss up to them. Call a spade a spade and you're out.

This happened to Bob Carver back in the 80's when he said he could make a solid state amp sound just like a tube amp. He was promptly slapped silly. I don't think he got a review in Stereophile or TAS for a long, long time.

The ears don't lie -- Klipsch rules.

[leok]

I have done some successful design and implmentation of amplifiers specifically for Klipsch speakers. For me, it is impossible to design a decent ss amp. I just can't figure out how to get rid of the exponential behavior that becomes very significant at low signal levels. I find that very few ss amps produce that good clean first Watt. I only say very few because people tell me they are out there. Personally I've never heard a decent ss amp.

Klipsch speakers are very efficient, meaning they require very little power. A lot of what you hear from a Klipsch speaker is using less than a Watt. That is why the low power capabilities of the amp are so important. (The Magneplaners I mentioned above require around 60 Watts to get loud by my standards, so ss amps, which do very well at high power, are perfect). Tube or pulse-width-modulation are the only two technologies I know that are easily configured to produce amplifiers with low distortion at low power.

Some people don't seem to mind the ss low power distortion, and some seem to like it. Others, like me, say the sound is harsh or grainy. If I were you, I'd audition Klipsch speakers using ss power, then listen using a good tube amp. Judge for yourself. Maybe you can find one of those good ss amps people talk about.

Properly used, klipsch speakers will give you much better sound .. less distortion and more dynamics .. than any speakers I know of for many times the price. That's why I like them and most likely, why most people like them.

leok

[dougdrake]

JG - Gil hit it on the head: Let your ears decide. You may find you don't care for the Klipsch sound. But be sure you've given it a fair shake with the right source components and setup.

As to the apparent ignoring of Klipsch by the audiophile community...I guess in my view it's because Klipsch doesn't play "the game." I believe there is truth that good reviews follow advertising dollars. We would be naive to believe there isn't at least SOME impact of that. And, it seems, Klipsch seldom spends heavily on advertising.

I also believe there is the snob factor. I'm not immune to it myself. In fact, I think Klipsch has reverse-snob appeal. It's cool 'cause it's dissed/ignored by the media, but we love the sound and the price.

Kind of like wine snobs passing up "2 Buck Chuck" 'cause it doesn't cost enough.

DD

[garymd]

Most people I know have never heard of klipsch. The ones who have seem to think it's one of the top-of-the-line brands. These are non-audio people who also think bose is THE best speaker made. Mostly co-workers, neighbors, etc.

Different issue: There is also the "what you're used to" factor. My wife is no audiophile to say the least and after 20+ years with my cornwalls she can't find a speaker up to $10k/pair she likes better. We tried. We also stopped after $10k.

[JBryan]

Maybe the mags don't want to spend too much time explaining why a horn-loaded speaker designed 50 years ago sounds better than many of the lastest, more expensive offerings. Maybe the reviewers don't want to nor think their subscribers would want to go through the troubles involved with modifying and matching equipment to sensitive HE speakers. Maybe PWK pissed off too many people in the biz with his rather brutal dedication to honesty (BULLS@#T buttons anyone?). Maybe I've had too much coffee... What was the question?

[Marvel]

Although my wife and I are far from musical snobs, we attend the local symphony every year. After one of the concerts, my wife spoke to one of the symphony employees (spokesman/pr) about how wonderful it is to hear live music, and how seeing the performance helps you appreciate it more than just hearing it. He told her that part of that is because most people listen on systems with three inch speakers. My wife said "we don't have three inch speakers." He then asked, "What do you have, Klipsch?" That would have been encouraging, but he then said he had a Bose system. LOL

Marvel

[PAR69]

I too agree with Fish. Klipsch fills the gap between bland sounding speakers and overpriced esoteric speakers. That and the fact that most of us on this forum like the live sound our Klipsch provide us with. My La Scalas sound better than the $10k pair of Monarch Audio speakers I heard, and at half the volume. And, they don't need 500 watt mono blocks to do it.

JG, I do recommend that you go out and listen to as many speakers as you can, you will learn what you like and don't like. Good luck and enjoy the music.

Paul