Calling all KLF-10 center-ch modders/HornEd types--Please Help!

[Snails_Pace]

Well, we've finally invested the $2.5K we needed in HT furniture and I now have room to place my KLF-10 horizontally below our plasma display--even without "HornEd-izing" the speaker to make it more suitable for horizontal use, its performance in our HT is incredible. Here's the rub. I would LOVE to make a new motorboard for this speaker that has the tweeter re-oriented for horizontal dispersion and placed between the two woofers, but I honestly don't have the skills, equipment or especially time (I just started a Ph.D. program) to do a good job. If there's ANYONE out there that still has their old motorboard from a KLF-10 they can use as a template to make another one and would be willing to sink a few hours of their valuable time into making one for me, I would be MORE than happy to pay for all materials, shipping, and some GENEROUS compensation for their time. If you're interested, please drop me an e-mail or post here and we can talk! Thanks so much.

- J.T.

[iwillwalk]

You might try to contact Mlstrass (user name on the BB)

He has the know how.

good luck

steve

[SCOOTERDOG]

JT

I built a custom center myself. I too was concerned with the motorboard being correct. I ended up going to a cabinet maker to do the special rabbiting since I did not have one capable of doing what needed to be done. It cost me about $70.00 bucks to have mine done. I had 2 10" holes done plus the mid and tweet. It was well worth having it done using the right tools. Here is a pick of the finished motorboard before installing the drivers.

[HornEd]

Someone with the know-how and equipment can knock one of these out of MDF in less than two hours... less for additional ones. If the horozontalized center is to go under your screen, put the horn tweeter on top of the midrange... and the reverse if it is to go above the screen. Short tweeter waves get sopped up early... so the closer they are on a plane with your ear... the more you get.

Last year I modified my six KLF-30 Legend Theater by horizontalizing the three rear KLF-30s and placing them on brackets about five feet above the floor. This allows better dispersion of the sound for the 40-60 folks who enjoy the Klipsch sound. To maximize the horizontal dispersion (e.g., allow seating closer to the rear array) the woofers are mounted as close to the ends of the cabinet. However, for the center, I mount the woofers as close to the center as possible. This provides better anchoring of the center sound (since the left and right speakers are mounted vertically on either side of the screen) and also tends to increase the legibility of the sound IMHO.

Since I have been "out of Klipsch pocket" for awhile, this info comes late... but I trust it will benefit someone else who is into the total joy that better timbre matching makes of multi-channel music and DVD videos. -HornEd

[Snails_Pace]

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On 2/20/2004 8:26:02 PM HornEd wrote:

Someone with the know-how and equipment can knock one of these out of MDF in less than two hours... less for additional ones. If the horozontalized center is to go under your screen, put the horn tweeter on top of the midrange... and the reverse if it is to go above the screen. Short tweeter waves get sopped up early... so the closer they are on a plane with your ear... the more you get.

Last year I modified my six KLF-30 Legend Theater by horizontalizing the three rear KLF-30s and placing them on brackets about five feet above the floor. This allows better dispersion of the sound for the 40-60 folks who enjoy the Klipsch sound. To maximize the horizontal dispersion (e.g., allow seating closer to the rear array) the woofers are mounted as close to the ends of the cabinet. However, for the center, I mount the woofers as close to the center as possible. This provides better anchoring of the center sound (since the left and right speakers are mounted vertically on either side of the screen) and also tends to increase the legibility of the sound IMHO.

Since I have been "out of Klipsch pocket" for awhile, this info comes late... but I trust it will benefit someone else who is into the total joy that better timbre matching makes of multi-channel music and DVD videos. -HornEd

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Hey HornEd, good to see you back...I hope life has been treating you well. Actually, during the interim from this last post, I managed to snag a single KLF-20 to match my other KLF-20s in the front. We're picking it up from a guy in FL next week then I'll have to find someone with the skill to make the new motorboard. I'll definitely set up the driver array as you mentioned.

Not sure what I'm going to do with that extra KLF-10 now--probably eBay or here (maybe someone else wants to make a KLF-10 center for their Legend setup?). I had thought about using it as a center rear, but I have 4 KLF-C7s in a rear surround array right now and I really like the way the surrounds/pans are perfectly balanced from one speaker to the next--I would think throwing a single KLF-10 between 2 C7s would cause a little discontinuity in the soundfield. Any way, I'll be sure to post my final impressions of an all KLF-20 front soundstage (though it can't possibly compare to the great KLF-30s-in-the-round of our good friend Ed). Cheers!

- Jason

[redtop]

HornEd,

Raising the rear surrounds bar again, eh? And just when I thought you were out of innovations...

Your horizontalizing of the 3 KLF-30's brings a few of questions to my mind...

#1 - Are they angled "down" towards the listening area at all?

#2 - Did you change the position of the left and right surround (front to back) relative to the listening area?

#3 - My KG 3.5's have one woofer and 1 port. Do you think I would be able to get a similar effect to your left and right rears by placing the woofer on one end and the port on the other?

Thanks in advance.

Redtop

[Joe Shmoe]

Yea... I couldn't imagine 6 KLf-30's...WOW! How about some pics of this setup?

[HornEd]

Snail's Pace... snagging a KLF-20 to match KLF-20's is by far the best solution. The reason I have three "surplus" KLF-10's is that I originally used them as rear surrounds to a pair of KLF-30 fronts and a KLF-C7 center... with Klipsch subwoofers under everything but the KLF-C7. While the set-up did fairly well for music (except for the standing wave challenges), a C-7 just can't stand up to the demands that modern DVD's place on a center speaker. So, I snagged another KLF-30 and speculated what it would do as a center with Klipsch's Trey Cannon. Then I read everything I could by Floyd E. Toole... the industry's acknowledged maven of acoustics and psychoacoustics. And, finally, the KLF-30 center was born.

Three more KLF-30's... and a pair of SVS-Ultras later... the balanced Legend Theater was born. This evening about 30-40 folks will be catching a DVD movie... and be treated to popcorn from an actual theater popper!

Redtop, the theater is currently housed in a 30' Pacific Yurt specially treated as a dedicated theater. Yurts have fabric walls with little reflective surfaces... so sound reflections enter a whole new engineering dimension! The front array and stacked subs have specially constructed baffles to reflect sound across the center. As you may recall, the KLF-30 center has the woofers as close as possible to the mid-range horn and horn tweeter which are located in the exact center.

The three surround KLF-30's are horizontalized with the woofers as wide apart as possible. This creates an angle of incidence that is very wide and, thus, allows closer seating to all surrounds. Obviously, if the speakers were vertical, the widest spread would be vertical... by placing them horizontally; one gets the best of directionality, timbre match and wide dispersion. There is a special baffle to direct the twin ports of each KLF-30 toward the front (sort of a "port u-turn"). The rear array is mounted about 5.5' above the floor and tilted to aim at the back of the head of the person sitting in the middle of the yurt. The flair of the woofers and horns provides adequate coverage for the 30' diameter circle of the yurt floor.

Since the KLF-C7 front effects speakers are not ported to the rear, they are simply mounted horizontally about five feet high and 90 degrees from the floor to provide an expanded soundstage.

In effect, this installation answers the question as to the necessity of having side and rear surrounds that confuse the ear by having little sound that reaches the listener from the direction of the loudspeaker and nearly all the sound converging as a reflected signal at nearly the same instant. That destroys the benefits of timbre matching (IMHO) decreases the precision of modern DVD editing for directionality, and produces a decidedly "unnatural" sound immersion for every scenario.

Of course, much of the objectionable acoustic coloration and standing waves that might occur in a round theater are avoided by having yurt walls with minimal sonic reflections... especially below 85 Hz. All waves below 85 Hz are handled by the stacked subs. Associated sounds above 85 Hz are handled by the six KLF-30's... and the low bass seems to come from the source KLF-30's rather than the stacked subs. It's eerie... but very effective! -HornEd

[HornEd]

Just a few more specifics, Redtop...

#1 - Are they angled "down" towards the listening area at all?

Yes, as described above. I try to look at the problem geometrically using a laser device to aim the speaker and then taking into account the angle of the speaker cones.

#2 - Did you change the position of the left and right surround (front to back) relative to the listening area?

Since this is a round theater, the rear array is equidistant from the center of the room. The front array is on a flat line with the front of the 65" reverse projection screen. I also have a twelve foot screen for a projector... but have yet to find a projector that gives the quality and luminosity of the Mitsu. The front effects speakers are mounted on the curve and positioned to cover the entire area.

#3 - My KG 3.5's have one woofer and 1 port. Do you think I would be able to get a similar effect to your left and right rears by placing the woofer on one end and the port on the other?

I doubt that a one woofer, one port speaker will benefit much considering the amount of work building new motorboards entail. However, if they were horizontalized, I would place each side surround woofer toward the outside of the middle of the room. There should be some benefit from having the ports dispersing a wider pattern.

Well, showtime in 40 minutes... I think Kassandra and I will take in the movie tonight... just for old Klipsch Time's sake. -HornEd

[redtop]

HornEd,

Thanks for the response to my questions. So much to learn, so little gray matter...As you might guess one lame question leads to another...

I am using a rectangular room (16 x 22) with 9' ceilings. There are no openings (when the door is closed) and the single sectional seating is located sbout 15' from the front. Assuming a 6.1 speaker setup with KG 3.5's all around, what would you do with the three rears? Horizontal with your center channel mod vs. a no mod vertical? Rears in the corners at a 45 degree angle to the center of the listening area vs. just behind the listening area at 90 degrees(the Dolby standard)? Or something else that I can't think to ask about at this point?

I hope I am not being a bother with all these questions. If so, I apologize in advance. Hope you enjoyed the movie. I'm CERTAIN you enjoyed the sound!

with warmest regards,

redtop

[HornEd]

Redtop, your questions are never a chore... but getting time to respond adequately is a challenge these days. One of the best primers on speaker placement is a "White Paper" by Dr. Floyd E. Toole of Harmon Industries. They are on the web and well worth a read since Dr. Toole is every pro's pro in acoustic and psychoacoustic principles.

The best timber-matched monopole 6.1 loudspeaker arrangements is a flat front array (all in alignment with the speakers just inside of the front line of the TV for less interference) and the back three mounted horizontally in a circular room. The next best is placing the left and right rear surrounds facing each other on either side of your main listening area and the rear surround(s) on the back wall facing the screen. Additionally, I like the rear array mounted horizontally because this gives the tweeter the least interference in reaching listeners' ears. High end waves are so short it doesn't take much to block their full effect.

Again, it is always good to see people using the honest rear-array timbre-matched monopole solution since it supplies the greatest amount of realism and does not defeat the directionality edited in to most modern DVD's. Enjoy, my friend! =HornEd

PS: I'll have to dig up the old photo of the 6.1 KLF-30 theater in an 18' x 28' rectangular room or take one in the 30' circular theater now showing. H.E.

[HornEd]

Joe Schmoe, photos, diagrams and instructions for building "HornEd Centers" out of Klipsch floor standers should be in the archives of this Forum in 2001-2003. There are also considerable debates about the superiority of identical, timbre-matched monopoles in all six (or seven) discrete channels.

Granted the rear array does not get as much play as the front array... but when something happens, you know it's just as real as when it comes from the front array! Of course, since upwards of 75% of the sound of a DVD is directed to the center channel, the biggest improvement most Klipsch system owners can make is to have a center channel that equals the left and right mains. So far, no one who has made this modification has every gone back to a wimpy center channel.

The Legend Theater contains six KLF-30's, two KLF-C7's (front effects) and two SVS Ultra's driven by 1,000 watt pro amp each. The screen is a 65" RPHD Mitsubishi. My primary music system replicates the Paul Klipsch "three channel stereo" mode with a pair of Klipschorns with a Belle Klipsch in the middle... and three Heritage speakers in the rear array when doing multi-channel music.

I'll try to get some new photos up one of these days. =HornEd

[redtop]

HornEd,

Thank you for your response. You need NEVER feel apologetic regarding your response times to my questions. After all, 9 hours is nothing compared to 9 months, so take whatever time you need. I learn with every post you make and all are appreciated by me and I'm sure by many others here.

According to your response it looks like I may have to settle for "next best" since I am fresh out of circular rooms... Do you have a preference for the left and right surround front to back position relative to the listening area? I've heard others recommend slightly behind the listening area (1-2 feet) and some position them even with the listening area. Hope this description makes sense.

I will look for Dr. Toole's tomes on the Internet. Sure hope it is in layman's language...

Thank you again for kindness to respond to this and many other posts. I look forward to pics of your setups. You are truly a treasure to this forum.

Redtop

[HornEd]

Thank you, Redtop, I do try... and I am a passionate believer in horn-loaded Klipsch loudspeakers arranged in a way that promotes the "natural sound" that can be had from modern mixes found on DVD's. More about that later...

In the conventional placement of side surrounds, I prefer aiming them about six inches behind the head of the primary listener in the front center seating position. I actually "aim" speakers with a laser level and a white board target with an oval to represent the target head mounted on a mike stand. The joy of horn-loaded speakers is the accuracy with which they can replicate the sound spectrum the potential curse is the precision with which they must be set up to achieve their acoustic excellence.

Someone recently mentioned (on another thread) that properly set up Klipschorns rate a 10 out of 10... and a poorly set up Klipschorns are lucky to receive a 2 out of 10 rating. I wholeheartedly agree! A rudimentary knowledge of acoustic and psychoacoustic principles along with a trusty SPL meter is the best cost/benefit recipe any would-be sound maven can acquire.

Of course, reading Mr. Pauls biography will bring a rush of esoteric audio knowledge... but a favorite starting point I recommend is

www.harman.com/wp/index.j...icleId=122 That should bring you to the "White Papers" of Dr. Floyd E. Toole... a Brit who migrated to Canada to work for the government in acoustic research for decades... and then hopped into a senior exec position with Harmon Industries... the audio conglomerate to begin a new commercial phase with a solid consumer orientation. You will find his "White Papers" easy to digest and well illustrated.

Of course, much of my theories are extensions of those held by Paul Klipsch and Floyd Toole. Weather those extensions are worthy is in the ear of the beholder. Certainly, I have been blessed with new converts to "natural sound" dynamics with each showing at my Klipsch Legend Theater... or every one that has horizontalized a floor standing Klipsch loudspeaker to become a fully functional DVD center... and everyone that goes beyond that to use properly set up monopoles in every 6.1 loudspeaker location.

Of course the unnatural mind-altering trickery used by THX and Bose runs counter to any HornEd enjoyable sound. The purpose of such trickery is to fool the ear to thinking it is passing under Niagara Falls or behind the Viagra corporate jet... and therefore inundated with sound to the point where one cannot discern direction or timbre-matching. Such trickery makes virtually every seat in a commercial a "good one." Mr. Paul had yellow B.S. buttons to put on comments like that!

Fortunately, Klipsch sells the makings to build a home theater that brings out the best in 6.1 discrete monopole natural sound. And, fortunately for the more adventurous, there is a brisk aftermarket where used Klipsch speakers can be woven into masterful audio environments there original owners probably never knew. Of all the people that have built home theaters using HornEd guidelines... not one has ever written that their experience was less than wonderful.

True, some sold their first attempts to build the next level of Klipsch speaker... but that is because they are "natural sound" believers. I use the parenthesis because true natural sound doesn't come out of loudspeakers... but the sound is natural enough to make those who attend my Legend Theater think that background noise is really happening outside the theater... and that a sudden sound from the rear array is actually something that occurred immediately behind their chairs!

It is sad that so many seek "theater sound" when it is designed to please the cash flow of the theater owner rather than the realism that can be brought to the consumer. I truly appreciate "Uncle Fred" allowing this Forum to be what it has become... a free space for serious folks to talk about worthwhile things... like fini's mother-in-law's cooking... or HornEd's delight in re-building Klipsch floor standers into "real" channel perfection.

Hmmm, it's beginning to feel like I am indeed back on the Forum. Thanks for stirring my Klipsch pot, Redtop! =HornEd

[redtop]

HornEd,

Thanks for the heads-up on the Dr.Toole docs. They are now downloaded. I just hope they will sink into this gray matter... And...just for good measure, I ordered the Paul Klipsch bio. Still available on Amazon.

And of course, thank you for sharing your extensions of PWK's and Toole's work. My personal passion for Klipsch started the 1st time I heard some LaScalas almost 25 years ago in an audio store. It was love at first "sound". My wife took one look at my face and promptly found me an exit. She probably saved our marriage (as well as our savings)...

Anyway...while I have not yet owned anything from the Heritage series, I do aspire (and am saving for) to one day possess a 3-channel Khorn/Belle system and a Legend or Lascala 6.1 Home Theater. But first got to get the kids through college. Darn those responsibilities...

redtop

[Cleve]

Ed, that system must be incredible!! SIX KLF-30's, and you really need any subwoofer? hehe. My ONE pair of CF-4's (the grandfather, or is it bastard parent, of the KLF-30?), now better amplified by 100 watts/channel of McIntosh power, can produce prodigious quantities of bass. I can only imagine (for now) what they'd sound like with their full, rated 300 watts/channel on tap! I haven't even hooked up my poor little RW-12 to my two-channel system yet. Of course, from your description, the 'yurt' is a huge room, and I'd have to think that fabric walls would require more bass than solid walls for the same sense of 'impact' to the listener.

What I'm curious about is the modifications to the KLF-30 center channel - What exactly did you change? Do you have any photos you'd be willing to share? At some point, I want to buy a CF-4 as a center, and wondered if your modifications would make sense for my application. Thanks!