SACD/DVD-A and Bass Management

[chinoloco]

Repeat of post in Home Theater Forum. Thought it would be more appropriate here:

Sigh.....sorry guys.. I am about to write a book here.

I think I moved too fast when building my 2 systems. Had I known that the 55TXi was going to come out with "ilink", I might have waited for a bit.

Oh well.. what is the solution? Build a third system!!!!

I am excited because you seem to get great results over ilink.

In my setup, my DV-45a is connected with 3 pairs of RCS for multi channel, 1 pair for 2 channel and then coaxial for digital.

One thing I am super frustrated by is that I just like the digital output more then analog output. (2 channel guys.. eat your heart out!!!)

DVD-A and SACD over analog is sure frustrating me for sure.

Examples:

1. Any regular audio CDs.

With the music travelling over the Digital coaxial via PCM output, the sound is much more deeper. The Bass is much more intense and the sound to me is more full. Setting on the AVR is "Source Direct". I have almost listened to every CD I have in my collection, switching from 2 channel analog audio cable connection and Digital. Digital wins everytime. 2 channel analog utput just sounds hollow to me.

2. SACDs.

I cannot tell you if this is the mixing or its the lack of bass management on my equipment. It just seems like with the 5.1 multi channel, the mixing seems to ignore the .1 channel alot of the times. Its like to me.. you have 6 connections. 1 is dedicated for the sub... why is there so little sound out of the subwoofer? I know there is a little output on the sub, but shouldn't the bass be more intensified? its like when they mixed it, they cut down on the bass. I have called Pioneer, set my crossover at 100hz. I have set my speakers to Small, and sub to on with both ends. Sub sounds much weaker when compared to regular CDs over PCM. I love the 5 channels on the highs and the mids. Its nice to have more fulfilling sound and have more direction from soem of the music. now please direct all the damn Bass to the .1 channel so I don't need to get external bass management equipment.

3. DVD-A and DVD music.

What can I say? I have 2 DVD-As. One is the DTS surround Hell Freezes over by the Eagles, the other is Night at the opera by Queen.

I pop in the eagles disc and listen in digital surround. ahh.. nice.. deep sounds, full sounds clean crisp concise music, bass is satisfactory when using DTS output over digital coaxial. Switch the AVR to analog 5.1 output. Bass output seemed to be cut in half. sound is more hollow and empty. AM I LISTENING TO BOSE ALL OF THE SUDDEN??? very dissappointing for me to be sure.

Pop in the the Queen DVD-A. bohemian rhapsody in 5 channel.. very cool. low bass output AGAIN... not so cool.

Bottom line, I have concluded either I need to change equipment to get more bass from the Subwoofer and go digital throughout. One thing I am still unclear about is does DVD-As go through ilink as well? I thought it was only SACD but I want to be sure. I guess I may have to get the outlaw ICBM to control all sounds under a certain frequency to the sub.

To the gang here:

1. Will I get more bass "out of the box" by going DV47Ai?

2. Will the Outlaw ICBM save my DV45a from being weak?? is the DV45A the only player weak on bass?

3. How is the bass over ilink?

thanks for the help... frustrated as hell and not sure where to go next.

[Fish]

I think your problems are in the settings somewhere,or your equipment doesn't match up.I have a 2900 and 3803 hooked w/analog cables and its sounds great,bass management is no issue.If(as you already know) you use optical out you are losing high rez audio.When you use 6ch out you are hearing the real thing without your pre amp adding bass or mid or whatever(at least in my case).I guess what I'm trying to say is digital is more processed,thus the more tonal control,but less rez.I will agree though I have heard/read many people with BM problems,I suppose ilink would make it easier.

[BBB]

Get the Outlaw ICBM. Once you hook it up to your analog multichannel outputs of your Pioneer the difference in sound when you play your SACD's and DVD-A dics will be like night and day when comparing what you are hearing without it.Good Luck.

[wangdang]

i agree yu need the ICBM. but part of your problem may be that you really do not have DVD-Audio disks. Aren't both DTS? If so, that means they will not output a true 6-channel analog signal. Doesn't mean they are bad -- just that your optimium sound may likely be thru the DTS signal processing in your receiver or DVD-player.

Here's a note about the DVD-A processing from the Queen review at High Fidelity Review (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/reviews/dvdaudio.asp):

=============

The inlay card continues DTS current theme of DVD-Audio misdirection. It states: Each DVD-Audio disc from DTS Entertainment includes a DTS master quality multi-channel soundtrack and a standard stereo track for complete compatibility with all DVD-Video players, plus an MLP 5.1 soundtrack for DVD-Audio players. The perception therefore, is that only the DTS track is master quality, where in fact only the MLP really is a true representation of the original master tapes.

The DTS track on the disc is the companys newest extension format, DTS 96/24, a lossy but backward-compatible way of delivering 96kHz sampled data. In reality however, the entire audible portion of the frequency spectrum, 20Hz - 24kHz, is only delivered at 48kHz resolution and, to accommodate the inaudible data above 24kHz, at a bitrate lower than that of standard (full-rate) DTS. Once again, for reasons explained in the following paragraph, well reserve judgement on the merits of DTS 96/24 until a later date.

===============

Try yet another disk that is clearly not part of the DTS line.

Hope that does the trick.

DB

[Bruinsrme]

Uhmmmm, having the luxury of the firewire connection the i-link passes all the bass management duties to the receiver.

Take a look at the dv45ai settings. It sounds like you have a conflict going on

[chinoloco]

Scott,

I have the 45A, not the 47Ai. I don't have Ilink. I also have the 45TX, so no ilink for me.

James

[marksdad]

it is the machine. i did head to heads in home 2-3 months agoboth the pioneer 45 and 47 had a few shortcomings sonically, the yammy 2300 and denon 2900 both seemed to handle all freqs better, both had good bass management, even though i do bass management through my reciever, i had the pioneers in house for 3-4 days each and took them both back, i found them especially weak in vid playback, chroma bug, diagonal lines.....

[Bruinsrme]

Sorry about that.

That is one bennie of the i-link it allows the receiver to process the information.

I find the video of the 47ai amazing. having 7 dvd players in the house not counting my laptop I have not noticed the problem with the "Chroma" bug. But then again I haven't gone frame by frame as the evaluators have done. The Sony Wega looks great. I am not sure how to evaluate or measure the diagonal lines.

The 47 and 49 combo for $3400 is, to me, amazing. I-link and MCACC my life easy.

The 59 series looks to be even more impressive and might very well end up in the HT.

Now the lexicon set up I recently experienced was WOW but the price was that too.

[Watchengineer]

Hi chinoloco,

I just purchased a Denon DVD-2900 and was concerned with the same apparent lack of bass output from my sub (when playing DVD-A/SACD's). After reading many responses from this forum and other groups, it appears it is a problem for most, if not all, DVD-A/SACD players. The bass management built into the Denon seems to work fine and the sound/picture quality is excelent. I just don't have any way of boosting the DB output to the sub. My reciever handles the bass management on the digital output, but not on the analog output. After reading posts from this forum, it looks like I have an Outlaw ICBM in my future. I have to say, the sound quality of DVD-A's and SACD's is fantastic. My Klipsch speakers realy show off when I play these music discs. Good luck with your system.

Watchengineer

Mains - RB5II's

Centers, Front and Rear - RC-3II's

Surrounds - RS3-II's

Front Effects - RB-15's

Sub - KSW-12 (waiting for SVS PB1-Plus to come out)

Reciever - Yamaha RX-V3300

DVD Player - Denon DVD-2900

VHS Mitsubishi S-VHS

Sony 36" TV

[roy]

hello all. I have a similar problem for which i just got done writing to yamaha for some help. Now maybe the new receivers wil have bass management for all the way around and not just for the digital outputs or inputs only. I have a yamaha rxv1300 rec bought within the past year...wonderful recvr but appears to have no bass management for the analog inputs of which alal sacd and dvd audio layers use up to this point I guess. I usually get weak subwoofer action when playing my sacds except for a couple which seem to get some good bass going from the sub. what I dont understand is this...my dvd/sacd player also has bass management but apparently also not for analog outputs as well......I have adjusted my bass management in my sacd/dvd player as well as in my receiver from yamaha but does it matter? if I setup the bass management in my recvr will it overide whatever bass management i selected on my sony dvd/sacd player? I gotta tell ya I am beggining to think the best thing to do is just buy large speakers from klipsch or every channel and say to hell with it..lol forget about bass management and just go with same size for the front and rear speakers and just have two really good center ch speakers for front center and rear center ch.......the way i run my setup now is i have selected in my yamaha recvr to send deep bass out of my big front klipsch speakers and to my sub as well so that all 3 of them are doing bass but i set the sub so it only does bass of 50hz and below for deep only...I dont know...this whole thing about bass management for sacds and dvd audio discs is confusing to me..lol