A frustrated Klipscher .. these are dark times

[decibel man]

I ment to post this earlier in the week, but my time and patience were still pretty thin. It started a few weeks ago when one of my old friends asked me if I would help him put together a new economy HT system. I asked him the usual questions and gave him some reading material to help him understand the basics. I explained to him that the biggest mistake for first time HT goers is that they do not spend enough money up front. Then in a few months they realize they are stuck with a system that they have already outgrown. Make a long story short we came up with a number between $1000 to $2000 to spend on a receiver and speakers. His roomate has the TV and DVD player. He asked why I love my Klipsch speakers and what makes them different from other speakers. After about two hours of serman like audio talk, I told we would go listen to as many different system as possible to see what he liked. I came across a special from J and R on the Yammy HTR5250 (same specs as the 596) for $299. I told him to go for it after we went to the dreaded Best Buy to look at the features. It is a nice piece for $299.

This brings me to the speaker purchase. Last weekend we drove all over the Cleveland / Akron / Canton area looking and listening. He wanted to hear what other types of speakers Klipsch had to offer so we first went to a Kliipch dealer. This dealer's inventory consisted of KLF-30's, KLF-20's, a KLF C-7, (all KLF's were on clearance) RF-3's, a RC-3, and the 10 and 12 subs. They did not even have a pair of surrounds or one bookshelf speaker. They also carried Paradigm, Definitive, and KEF reference. Since they had no Klipsch bookshelf models, and that was what he was leaning toward for future space flexibility, we did not even listen to the Klipsch line. I was embarrassed to be a Klipscher. I even asked when they would be getting in the new ref speakers, for myself. The answer was "eventually", so I asked if they were on order and that answer was "no." We drove over an hour to go to this store. The sad part is that the local super hi-end store that is a whole 5 minutes from my house also owns the mentioned Klipsch dealer that was an hour away. They did not have one positive thing to say about Klipsch marketing or management, but did not knock the product quality. After two days of listening we ended up back at this local store with a nice B&W DCM303 system. It is a great sounding system for a mere $1150 including a $450 PSB sub and 75 feet of Tara Labs 12 guage wire. Of coarse my friend happened to have a cook out Sunday night when I was setting the system up for him. That way all of my friends could be there to ask why I did not steer him into a set of Klipsch speakers. I heard the phrase muddered "...because nobody wants to carry them anymore."

This has been a very disappointing and humbling experience for me. There are almost a dozen Hi-Fi stores within an hour drive that carry at least one model of speakers that cost more than KHorns, so there is no excuse as to the lack of support from dealers. In school the professors always said that marketing is part of the total product, so what does that say about my beloved Klipsch? What is being done in markets that are not as large as NYC, Las Angelos, Las Vegas, and Chicago to immprove Klipsch representation?

I don't mean to be negative, this is my first real negative post in 100+ posts. I am just concerned and embarrassed.

JT

[dougdrake]

Speaking for the Phoenix area (population about 4mm)...We have two dealers here (Showcase Home Entertainment - owned by Sound Advice out of Florida - and Ultimate Electronics), with a total of 6 or 7 stores between them. Each of the stores I've been in carry almost the full line of Synergy and Reference series (including surrounds), some of the Legend line, and the subs. So I guess we're pretty well covered here in the dusty desert. Would love to see the Heritage models out here, though!

Doug

[erdric]

Here in Boston I only know of one authorized dealer for Klipsch and that's Tweeter. The only lines that I've seen there are the synergy and reference. The thing that pisses me off is that they haven't been willing to deal on the price. It's msrp only. It's really annoying to know that they're the only authorized dealer in the area and I'm at their mercy.

If someone from the Boston area knows any authorized dealer for Klipsch besides Tweeter I would be forever in your debt.

[DwK]

Here in Dallas Texas we have quite a few stores that carry Klipsch.

The one I go to all the time is Hill Crest Hi Fi .

They have alot of Klipsch products.... Bookshelfs... Floor Standing.......

Mostly I see Klipsch, B&W and Paradigm in there.. not much of anything else.

------------------

K6-2 450

SB Live Value ( not 5.1)

Klipsch Pro Media v2 400 ( soon to be 4.1 )

2 Fisher STV-873's on front channel

2 Fisher surrounds on rear channel

[J M O N]

Accidentally double posted... sorry.

This message has been edited by JMON on 06-01-2001 at 04:06 PM

[J M O N]

DWK,

I know of only two stores in Dallas that carry Klipsch: Hillcrest High Fidelily and Tweeter (formerly Home Entertainment). Hillcrest has two locations and Tweeter has several, but both stores will have the same prices and carry the same models.

Hillcrest is closer to the small "audio salon" that offer personalized service, but they seem to be trying to become more of a electronics "supercenter". My favorite audio stores in Dallas do not carry Klipsch.

I have not been impressed with some of the salesmen at Hillcrest. A while back I overhead one tell an older couple that "He would not let them buy Klipsch" and wouldn't even let them listen to Klipsch. Another salesman didn't even know what a Klipschorn was. Some of the salesmen there are not audio enthusiasts, they are just salesmen.

[HornEd]

Hey, JMON, I see that bunny avatar is still multiplying your posts...

Sadly, like many things, apparently Hillcrest was a lot better years ago when I got good advice, good product and good deals from them. I don't mind paying a bit more if the advice I get saves me the hassle of a wrong decision. But, if I pay more to get a wrong decision... well... I am just glad this board is here, and that the posters, for the most part stick together, and the company (Klipsch and its dedicated minions) allow us the latitude to provide for each other for what the salesmen are already being paid. Hear us O Klipsch Minions... the hinterlands and heartlands care about finishing the balance of the first 100 years in better style. Tell us how we can help... 'cause we sure will tell you where the bodies are buried. HornEd

[graymark]

I had the same problem and I live near the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. There were only 2 dealers active out of 4 in the area that actually had inventory. One is a chain, Good Guys (yuck!) and the other was an appliance store that also has TV's and Klipsch. They did not even have the speakers wired for sound! They hooked up an RC-3 and a KLF-C7 so I could here them.(Caston's)I bought an RC-3(not in stock, still waiting a month later for the truck to arrive)a pair of RCW-5's and a KSW-15 sub. Still have not heard them yet!

Thank God for the dealer locator on the site. I have had a pair of Belle's and Heresy's since '79 or so.

[DwK]

For the life of me I cant remember what road the Hill Crest I go to is on... ohh well.

When ever I go there, I talk to the people... and they seem to know what they are talking about, can answer all my questions, and let me listen to what ever I wish to. I let them know I will not be buying anytime soon, I had been planing to buy something this summer when I got the money, but changed my mind and will be waiting another couple years till I graduate HighSchool.

I have been meening to go to a Tweeter.. just no one will take me and I havent gotten my Drivers Liscense yet (maby because I cant spell the word..)

Nice to find someone that lives around you.. It makes you feel... more comfertable I guess.

------------------

K6-2 450

SB Live Value ( not 5.1)

Klipsch Pro Media v2 400 ( soon to be 4.1 )

2 Fisher STV-873's on front channel

2 Fisher surrounds on rear channel

[kalell]

I have found in Dallas/Ft. Worth that there are not too many dealers with Klipsch. The ones that are there do not have much to offer and are by no means compettative. No matter where you go you will pay the same price. It is no wonder people are turning to the net to buy the speakers.

[decibel man]

I think the major problem in this area is the lack of multi-store hi-fi shops. There is only one high-end store with three locations and that is it. At one time some years ago they used to carry Klipsch, but not now. It seems as if even their staff has been greatly downgraded as far as quality is concerned. We listened to some Paradigm and Phase Technology speakers. The Phase Tech's were the Theatro (sp?) and boy did my ears hurt. A lot of people think the Klipsch are bright and slightly harsh, but in the dictionary under harsh there is a picture of the Phase Tech speaker system. The clowns from this shop even setup a both with Bose at the Home and Garden show ever year. My friend could not understand why I wasn't correcting the salesman everytime he would give out horribly wrong information. I told him it does not make a difference if the store doesn't care anymore to train these sales personel more carefully. It was a joke, he would explain the the "... speaker was crossed at 40Hz, so it had great bass." That statement is wrong on many levels. How do you explain to a salesman that he is totally wrong when you know that you probably won't be buying from him anyway. It would just be cruelty. Not to mention, everything he was selling was at MSRP, but he did offer to throw in a 10% discount on just a sub if we bought a five speaker system.

It is so frustrating to deal with these local shops. I hope most of you are having better luck than the rest of us in this audio hell. I just got my LF-10 amp back yesterday and now the sub will randomly start a very very loud hum all on its own. It might be a cable problem so I will test it out this weekend. At least the customer service and technical staff at Klipsch has remained excellant unlike their retail representation.

Happy listening! (that is if you can find some equipment to buy)

JT

[J M O N]

HornEd, you know how rabbits are

Sounds like you lived in Dallas before. What made you move? Not enough Klipsch Dealers??

DWK, There are two Hillcrest locations (that's the first sign that an audio store is trying to become more of a "supercenter", when they expand from one store). There is one on Preston and 635. The other one is on Parker and the Tollway (this one is much larger and has been around for a year or so). Most of their salesmen are knowledgable, but they do have some that are "new at this". When you expand and get more stores, you're likely to have fewer salesmen that are knowledgable (and passionate) about audio.

My favorite Klipsch Dealer is Sound Ideas in Albuquerque. I haven't been there in a couple of years, but they used to have Klipschorns on display as recently as a couple of years ago. In fact, they probably had the most impressive home theater display I have seen -- Klipshorns in front, Belle center, Klipshorns in the rear (hanging upside down from the ceiling), subs under the floor, giant front projector. Unfortunately I never got to listen to this amazing system. It seemed that PWK visited Sound Ideas often. In fact, PWK was there the day my cousin picked up his Chorus II's. He got to share some Scotch with PWK and the owner, and also had PWK sign his woofers.

[Shiplemw1]

Wish me luck everyone:

Here in the next two weeks I'd like to head up to the nearest klipsch dealer to me (1.5 hours away to the north). They only have one store as far as I know so... hopefully they'll have quite a selection of klipsch to listen to. They also sell denon, hk, and onkyo as far as I know and I'll hopefully get to try them out... hehe... On another note, I've figured out that I'm not gonna take any cd's to listen to. I"m just gonna load up my laptop and a good 1/8" mini to dual rca adapter and play it loud... most likely not but.. still trying to find a demo disk in my small collection of cd's that will work well.

[HornEd]

Yes, JMON, I have many great memories from the DFW area... including businesses in Dallas, Irving, Richardson... and a 12,800 sq. ft. showroom in the Infomart with a 60 seat theater which included items bought from Hillcrest. I retired to the Klipschorn comfort of Fort Worth and returned to my native San Francisco when my father fell victim to a stroke five years ago. It was one of those things where they took care of me as a helpless kid... so now it's my turn. So I dropped everything and have been at it every day ever since. I'd like to think my personal contribution is better than what I could pay someone else to do.

I am still fond of Texas (my favorite ex-wife lives in our old home atop a hill in N.W. San Antonio), retain some investments there and most likely will return when my work here is completed... or I run out of breath.

I, too, have fallen in the multiple post crevice... in fact, my first Klipsch handle was "BargainEd" but something broke and the webmaster found it easiest to have me reborn as something else. Hmm, I think my favorite ex-wife said something like that as well.

Anyhow, I couldn't resist taking a cheap shot at your doubly posted rabbit avatar.

I have additionally maintained Klipsch enriched environments in Paris, Orleans, New York City and Atlanta... so I come by the HornEd label honestly. Frankly, I have yet to find a great place to buy Klipsch products with confidence built upon the store or sales personnel. Actually, most of my Klipsch purchases have been in spite of store personnel. That's why I enjoy and appreciate this Klipsch board... naive neophytes, persistent posters, unseen but counted lurkers, "Klipsch minions" plus actual and would be "No Lifers" that help us all out along the way.

I do not know how much of our comments become meaningful within the Klipsch inner-sanctum... but at least most of us put our money where our posts are... and that should be a statistically viable aspect.

Although we may need a "devil's advocate" since the ranking "poster/advocate" is a precise but hopeless Windy City Klipsch addict.

Oh, and thanks for the Albuquerque dealer tip, JMON, I'll pass it on to some of my artist friends who frequent the area and, hopefully, stop by the next time the wheels are pointed that way. Good dealers deserve our support... but MSRP is not the way to get it without providing more than most dealers do. HornEd

[Steve Phillips]

I know the feeling!

I live between Charlotte and Winston Salem NC.

Charlotte had Audio Video Systems,great to deal with and able to cut MSRP.Would order what they didn't carry,now they have become Tweeter

Heard from an ex AVS person that cutting prices was a NOT!Haven't been yet,be a while before I go.

Winston has NOW!Audio Video I don't think much of their "head"sales types.Been to 2(1 was in Knoxville TN)and at both the guy had worked at or with Klipsch in the past(BULL****!)I didn't fall on the audio wagon yesterday and I don't care for people that try to steer my away from my Klipsch.Get a life sales nobodies.

Anyway that's my $ and a halfs worth.

$0.01 more

Wake up Audio sales types,we love our Klipsh and if you don't want to carry Klisch or get what we want,E-Bay!

------------------

Main HT:'77 Klipschorns w/ALKs,'75 Heresy center,modified with,K-Horn sqauwker & AA network.

KSP-S6 at sides 2 KSP-S6's rear.

Denon AVR-3801

2 Denon POA-2800 200X2

1 driving the Horns

1 driving the bi-wired Heresy center.

2 DIY 12"4ohm subs,Carver A500x 400 watts per ch.feed.

1 12" powered sub(behind the couch)feed from the surrounds pre-outs.

Sony DVP-C650D.Dish Echostar 4700 w/DD

JVC S7600U S-VHS

Pioneer CDL-D501 laser

Music in "Direct"only!

DH Labs T-14 speaker wire to the front 3.

Bed room HT:KSB 2.1 mains,SC-1,SS-1's,2 SW 8 II subs.

2 Heresy's for music.

Denon AVR-2800,Dishnetwork,Sony SLV-975HF VCR,Panasonic DVD-RV31.

[erdric]

I'm wondering if I missed some underlying issue in this post. Are Klipsch falling out of favor with retailers? Why would salespeople be purposely steering people away from Klipsch? Both JMON and Steve mentioned occasions where the dealer purposely tried to keep customers away from Klipsch. Are they just trying to get customers to buy more expensive products or is there something else going on?

[decibel man]

I don't have all of the answers (actually I am not sure that I have one answer), but it seems as if Klipsch has somehow upset audio dealers around the country. I have been in sales from the manufacture side for about 10 years and I have always had some dealing with retail stores. It has been my experience that the floor sales person becomes brainwashed as to the direction the store wants to go. My point is that if the store isn't excited about a product it will probably be obvious from the way the sales person represents it to the customer. You always have some VP of Sales telling us to go out and get the store sales staff excited about selling product "X", but if the store owner and management are not on board you can bet the rest of staff is not going to be either. The best way to get a store owner on board is to make good business policies. This usually starts with a firm handshake and a good look in eye so they know you are serious about making them money with an excellant product. Thank God for industrial customers lucky for me the items for retail that we produce now are only about 10% of my sales.

The question is: what did Klipsch do to upset these dealers? And what is Klipsch doing to make ammends? When a store has a better collection of Martin Logan and Hales than Klipsch in a middle income nieghborhood there is a big problem.

Still frustrated,

JT

[Steve Phillips]

To me Klipsch sounds better with certin(I miss the spell check) elecrtronics and I have yet to find a dealer that carries both.The local dealer had B&K,Yamaha and Pioneer.I had B&K-Klipsch,and Yamaha-Klipsch,and have settled on the Denon-Klipsch sound to be what I like.Tweeter I hear carries Denon and Klipsch.For me that would help,but I like the Denon-Klipsch combo.IMHO

Maybe there is more of a markup on other speaker lines than on Klipsch,I don't know,but that would cause a problem.Maybe they make more green on the other stuff.After all that's what this country cares most about.Give me more of the green stuff,I need more!!!

Sorry I lost it.

Do other speaker companies have a cool forum like this?We here love our Klipsch sound,everyone else has been brain washed to not and say it's the"horn"sound.Sorry twice,got on a different rant.I'll go now.

[PhilH]

As BobG and I tour the country training salespeople, we concentrate on several areas of guidance and information. High on that list is general sales training...problem solving to help the customer make a decision they will be happy with. We want them to sell Klipsch whenever possible, of course, but any sale is better than no sale. We tell them that we realize that everyone has their own opinions of something and that everyone has their favorites...but to try to sell with an open mind...match the customers needs and let them make the decision. Let them make that decision with correct information.

The last ten years alone has changed the face of retailing like no other ten year period in history. Retailers face a shrinking number of good salespeople to choose from, increased competition from "faceless" sources (the Internet, for example). Retailers are combining for "economies of scale", leading to fewer and fewer "home town" stores. Inventory "turns" have become a very important tool in cost reduction, and retailers have learned that they must react very quickly to any slowdown or leveling off of the economy.

There were many things learned from the closings of several large retailers in the past decade-Highland, Fretter, CMC, Luskins, Sun, etc. and most recently Montgomery Ward. And those are just the big ones that make the big headlines.

One of the things that many retailers are seeing today is the importance of good training, and how very important it is to NOT to carry on the old tradition of "throwing" people on the floor to see who sinks or who swims. It is costly in both lost employees and in lost customers. Proper training is not a new principle but is a principle that is being advocated more and more. This emphasis on training by the retailers is backed, by us, and by a truly committed sales rep force that stays in touch with their dealers and the people on the floor by many in-store visits.

Believe me, it pains me to hear of any bad experience a customer has at a dealer, whether it be no information, misinformation, bad mouthing ANYONE or ANYTHING or any other form of poor customer service. Legitimate retailers DO train their salespeople otherwise. Unfortunately, bad experiences can happen anywhere, in any type of business. The problem is when truly legitimate poor customer service is not brought to management's attention by the customer, the one having the most impact, the company does not realize it even has a problem.

The above situations are no excuse for a drop in customer service, just a reason for people who can make a difference in improving the situation, like myself, to work that much harder. If you feel one of our dealers is guilty of poor customer service, please allow them the opportunity to make it right for you and for others after you! If they don't, please feel free to e-mail myself or BobG about the situation.

DecibelMan...I don't feel we have done anything to upset our dealers, most of which we have an excellent relationship with. If you'd like to e-mail me the specifics of your poor experience, I know our rep for your area would be happy to look into it. If it was me in your situation I would have told the salesperson that was not correct, and if he didn't right himself, I would have politely informed the manager about the misinformation being given out. You've got to speak up gang if something is wrong...when I was a retail manager that was the "proof" I needed to take corrective action. I would much rather have been told then and there than have that mad customer tell seven other people who tell seven other people and before you know it...everyone thinks my service stinks!

PhilH

[Guest polymon]

Let me add to what Phil says...

As one of the Territory Sales Reps Phil mentioned, I can tell you how frustrating it is to hear from "expert" salespeople (there ARE some truly excellent salespeople out there, too) that our speakers are great for movies, but suck for music. One guy who attended a Klipsch sales training even went so far as to tell us (anonymously) that we should "lose the horns, and you'll get my vote".

This saleperson is so possessed by his own opinion that he believes there is only one way to do it right, and horns ain't it. He obviously doesn't bother listening closely enough to a customer to know if this is right for Them!

The better salesfolks will spend a lot less time talking than listening to a customer and try to guide them to a speaker that's ideal for that particular customer, whether Klipsch or one of the many excellent brands we compete with.

It's also a challenge to get a smaller dealer to support a whole group of products from one company when they believe doing so will compromise their ability to offer a variety of products. I have a few dealers in the area who will not stock a certain Klipsch model because they "already have 2 or 3 models in that price range". Reality: they have just removed one more unique choice from the customer!

On the other hand, there are a few "legacy" (my own term, for dealers who've sold Klipsch for 20+ years) Dealers who sell the whole Klipsch line and little else.

As far as the the wonderings about what we've done to upset certain dealers: We, like any other company, have made some mistakes. PWK used to talk about the Shorthorn, a speaker made briefly in the late 50's, as being his "Edsel". Some dealers are more willing to forgive and move on than others. I have a dealer here who was upset because we couldn't ship something to him overnight (he's calling me at 5PM PST, after all our shipping is shut down), and has decided that was sufficient reason to stop selling Klipsch. I guess you just can't please all the people all the time no matter how hard you try, and we DO try hard!

Klipsch has always been completely unique. Some folks love the way our speakers sound, and others hate it. Musicians, many people in the movie business, and people who listen to alot of live music music really love Klipsch Speakers. Folks who just want background music generally don't.

------------------

Polymon