space_cowboy Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I lurk here a lot but usually can't chime in too much. Was looking around tubes sites and saw this claim, haven't seen it discussed here, just more smoke and mirrors? Cryogenic treatment is a process where a product (VACUUM TUBES)is tempered in a deep freeze process(-300F) for 48 hrs. This process produces a permanent change in the metals inside this product making it stronger and longer lasting. Tools, instruments, knives, razor blades, machinery parts have been Cryo Treated for many years.Why do this to tubes?Tubes are mostly metal inside so Cryo treating tubes has the following benefits: permanent change in the metals at the molecular level(more uniform grain structure of metals), longer lasting, tightens internal parts of the tube allowing for more efficient operation. SONIC IMPROVEMENTS FROM "CRYO TREATED" TUBES: LOWER NOISE FLOOR,lower distortion, extended frequency response at the extremes, greately increased resolution and transparency. You will hear information from the recording you barely, or never heard before, especially at the back of the stage! Bass response is greatly improved, treble is sweeter but more extended. Cryo treated tubes just sound much bette and more effortless than a non-treated tube!!! Oh well, just curious............thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Please believe me but I am sorry to say that the claims you have read regarding cryo tubes are in fact, to my humble ears, absolutley 100% true! It pains me to the ends of the earth to admit this! I would much rather write a sarcastic put down of audio weirdos who listen to music too hard than admit that I have frozen tubes in my system. I heard cryo tubes at a local high end salon and was shocked at the difference in sound versus NOS and new tubes. I bought some cheap chinese KT 88s as well as a couple of 12AU7s that had been cryoed, installed them in my power amp and all that you read is true - as painful as that is to admit. I replaced some very very expensive tubes and believe me they were no match for the cheapo cryos! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 What happens when you heat them up -- do they melt? It does seem like any benefit derived from freezing would be lost as soon as you heat them up the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Wouldn't mind seeing a Chemical explanation for this. I can see that the effect of either heating or cooling can produce a chemical rather than a physical change in some materials, but in metals?? (just to explain what I mean by chemical verses physical change, if you heat a piece of bread up to a certain point you get warm bread. Reversing this process is easy - just allow it to cool. If you further heat the bread you get toast. It doesnt matter how much you cool it afterwards it wont ever become bread again. Warm bread is a physcial change, toast is chemical). According to the little science I read if you cool a metal low enough it becomes a super conductor (tending to zero resistance) but from what I knew (bugger all in reality) as you warm the metal up again it loses this property. In fact I seem to remember reading that they are spending millions on research in Japan to create super-conductors that work at room temperature. I vote for snake oil - but then I used to believe that about speaker cables. read my sig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Changes in metals can be had by repeatily heating and rapidly cooling,(anealing?)however freezing and thawing does not alter a metals structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 I do not know what metals are in Vacume tubes, but I can tell you that cooling metals lower than room temperature does make them more stable. Taking metal slowly down to -200 degrees and restoring it to an ambiant temperature slowly several times is an artifical aging process that will make the metal structre more stable sooner. It was a process that was developed by German and Swiss machine tool manufacturers that use to let there fresh foundry castings sit outside for 5 years before machining them. Now days they have electric heat treating systems that can cool to -200 and heat to +2000 degrees as well as control the atmosphere conditions. Also, another tid bit of Heat treating trivia. The old English sword makers found that an interesting way to properly heat treat there swords in the middle ages Water cooling (rapid cool) makes it too hard and brittle, they held a great strong edge, but they broke easily. Air cooling will aneal the blade and return it to soft structure. So to slow down the cooling process and make a sword that was both hard and strong they use to use condemed prisoners and thrust the orange hot sword into there bodies having the sword cool down inside the poor soul. Now days they use oil and or salt cooling processes. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Cryogenic treatment has been used in racing circles for years alredy. Brake rotors, crankshafts, connecting rods and the like have been subjected to cryogenic treatment. The claim is that by removing stresses caused by forging, casting, machining, and repeated heating and cooling cycles during production, useful cycle life is increased. I cannot say at all if these claims are true, but in the very competitive nature of racing, teams are constantly looking for an edge over the rest of the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Well, probably would have got them but the dealer was out of what I wanted. He is substituting NOS Tungsrams for the same price. I really have no idea what I'm doing, but might as well start experimenting. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Cryogenic treatment is also used by competitive rifle shooters to even the stress of machining and forging on the barrel/reciever. The proponents do claim that it changes the crystaline structure of the treated metals. I wonder how an output tranny would sound if the laminations were treated? Anybody got a vat of liquid nitrogen? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Your local hospital should! Btw, there is another form of stress releiving used for metal parts. It is vibrational stress relieving, on a special fixture table. I believe the company offering this service was metalux. Not 100% sure though. The article was in a circle track magazine a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkrop Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 My earlier post was before I had my coffee, annealing is the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 So really, where do you think that you get tubes cryoed? The guy i bought mine from guards his source like a drug dealer! I would like to try some tubes of my own and give this a close A/B josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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