leok Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 John, In the case that I think is being discussed here, the crossover is divided (no connection) into a high pass for the upper 1 or 2 horn(s) and a low pass for the woofer. Then two amps, each receiving full bandwidth signal, drive the two sections. Below the cutin frequency for the high pass section, its amp sees impedance that increases as frequency is lower. Above the cutin frequency for the low pass section, its amp sees impedance that increases as frequency is higher. This is not true bi-amping which is why I use the term "dual amping." If the 2 sections are connected in parallel, as they are hard wired in the Forte and Chorus, or wired by jumpers in the Reference, then the amp is loaded at all frequencies. In a true bi-amp situation, the crossover is before the amp and the amp is directly connected to the speaker so it's always loaded. Are we talking about the same thing? Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 DeanG and Hepta Bronte are actually twins........I can't remember which is the "evil twin" though ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Lynn, That's easy. Both of them are the evil twin. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 I think Erik has a great idea. I had thought about using a remote volume control in line to the amplifier hooked to the bass bins. This would give me control over the amount of gain to the bass bins in general, and also the ability to gently tweak the bass according to what recording I'm listening to. Without getting off my ***. Sort of like a remote bass control. I also plan to put a MQ107 in line to contour the bass. I don't think I'll suffer the ill effects of all the electronics in line because they are only affecting 400 hz and down. Isn't it Creek Audio that makes one of those high quality remote volume controls? Does anyone know of any other manufacturers? I can't wait to try biamping without an active crossover. I'm planning to use my SET amp on the upper horns and my Quicksilvers on the bass bins. I'm putting simple high pass filters into the input of the SET and I'm going to start by running the Quicksilvers full range into the bass bins. Someone here told me the Khorn bins drop dead above 400hz. If that doesn't work well, I'll make a simple fixed passive low-pass crossover for the bass bins. One concern I have is the amount of midrange that actually comes out of the bass bins. During my active crossover experimentation, I was amazed at how little was actually coming out of the midrange and tweeter when compared to the bass bins. However, I've been informed that the way I had the system set up, the crossover point was probably much higher than I thought it was. But it remains a concern. Will I get the SET magical sound if it's only working from 400hz and up? I have lots more I could say about this, but enough for now. By the way, djk has been very helpful to me in figuring this all out. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 John Albright said: "...The amp driving the tweeter of your RF-7s sees an increasing impedance as frequency drops. It NEVER sees no load on the output terminals...The crossover adds the impedance at falling frequencies so the the power at those frequencies follows the path of least resistance to the woofers. The woofer section of the crossover does the same thing in reverse...At the crossover point the impedance of each section is double the driver's impedance, cutting output by half." Leo said: In the case that I think is being discussed here, the crossover is divided (no connection) into a high pass for the upper 1 or 2 horn(s) and a low pass for the woofer. Then two amps, each receiving full bandwidth signal, drive the two sections. Below the cutin frequency for the high pass section, its amp sees impedance that increases as frequency is lower. Above the cutin frequency for the low pass section, its amp sees impedance that increases as frequency is higher. This is not true bi-amping which is why I use the term "dual amping." Sorry guys, but I really need some closure on this issue. I did talk to Mark Deneen on the phone about it as well, and he came down on the side of Leo somewhat, and went into an explanation involving an Oscillating universe. Think you guys can hack this one out for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 I agree with Lynm, because I tried bi-amping myself. I tried a commercial electronic crossover with my 6-watt maximum output Bottlehead 2A3 Paramour monoblocks and my 60-watt maximum output, vintage Pioneer M-22 dual-monoblock. The Paramours drove the high frequencies and the Pioneer drove the low. I will admit that I left the K2 crossover in so my conclusions are hardly scientifically valid. The high frequencies of the electronic crossover were further sub-divided (at 450kHz) to the tweeter and mid-range horns by the existing crossover. Therefore, I played with a wide range of low and high settings. Nonetheless, at many crossover frequencies, the bi-amping was more similar to using the M-22 alone than anything else. Plus, it muddied the mid-range somewhat slightly. Sure, bi-amping improved the bass response. Yet, my vintage solid-state harmon/kardon 330B receiver does this too. At average musical volumes in typical room sizes, the incredibly sensitive classic Klipsch corner Khorns requires only milliwatts most of the time. Even 15 to 30dB peaks on CDs will only require momentary bursts of a few watts. The fact of the matter is that with milliwatt power requirements most of the time, bi-amping doesnt add much more power to normal situations. Sure bi-amping is the equivalent of ten times more power. Two six watt amplifiers will sound like 120 watts. But ten times more milliwatts is still just one-tenth of a watt more. Ten times that is only a watt. Hence, there is little appreciable difference with big ole horns. Yes, I would love to have an incredible 100 tube watts with my big beautiful babies, but what I really need is a 12 watt amplifier of the caliber and control of the superlative Pass X250 concrete monster amplifier, which doubles its output as impedance drops (1000 watts into 2-ohms). If what you want is the better bass control that comes with solid-state amplifiers, and yet the fast attack, quick decay, sweetness and delicacy of tube amplifiers, particularly SETs, I would recommend adding either deep and powerful subwoofers, like the SVS tubes, or punchy ones, like Klipschs RSW series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 This is a picture of the new Klipschorn crossover. At the top of the board you can see the binding posts, and there are a pair for each driver. The crossover has already been split out by Klipsch to accomodate tri-amping. I was going to jumper the midrange and treble together, and run the bass alone. No 'Y' cable, which would be vertical biamping. I want to do horizontal biamping. My Quad monoblocks would be connected to the midrange/treble (one amp on left channel, one amp on right channel). I then wanted to put a stereo solid state amp on the woofers. I've been digging into this, and hoards of people do it. When Leo and yourself objected to the practice, it was the first time I had ever heard there might be a problem doing it. I'm especially confused since almost every speaker built now, is built to accomodate the practice. If it's possible to build a tube crossover that can do everything we see below -- I would be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 My take on bi-amping is that different amps have distinct sonic signatures and for that very reason, folks who attempt to bi-amp are usually unsatisfied with the results. The real challenge is finding complimentary amps and the ideal approach is to use the same amp on the top and bottom. Of course, folks usually want to bi-amp because they find something lacking in their present setup. Adding an amp with more authority in the bass to an amp with airy and detailed mids and highs seems like a good idea on paper but tends to sound disjointed in practice. Likewise, using an active crossover can benefit the coherence of the amps but will not be very effective at combining uncomplimentary amp signatures and adds to the signal path which among other nasties, may increase the noise level. In the end, its the decision is full of compromises and the choice usually boils down to the least of evils but simplicity prevails here and its often easier (if not cheaper) to find a single amp that accomplishes your needs than finding a combination of amps that compliment each other and add coherence to the system instead of taking it away. Just a thought, Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I actually believe pretty much the same thing, and I really just wanted to try it as more of an experiment to see what it would sound like. My bass is actually pretty awesome, but was curious to see what would happen if I put something on the bottom with a higher damping factor than most tubes amps provide. I've already decided to ditch the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Oh my, relax -- I have no intention of "changing" anything with my Klipschorns. If I was going to do that I would have bought "used" ones. Funny how things change [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 No in this case its actually kinda sad [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 This is a picture of the new Klipschorn crossover. At the top of the board you can see the binding posts, and there are a pair for each driver. The crossover has already been split out by Klipsch to accomodate tri-amping. I was going to jumper the midrange and treble together, and run the bass alone. No 'Y' cable, which would be vertical biamping. I want to do horizontal biamping. My Quad monoblocks would be connected to the midrange/treble (one amp on left channel, one amp on right channel). I then wanted to put a stereo solid state amp on the woofers. I've been digging into this, and hoards of people do it. When Leo and yourself objected to the practice, it was the first time I had ever heard there might be a problem doing it. I'm especially confused since almost every speaker built now, is built to accomodate the practice. If it's possible to build a tube crossover that can do everything we see below -- I would be interested. 18 db tube crossover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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