TOC_op Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I have a few questions regarding the use of a Belle Klipsch as a center channel in my home theater. (I've loved that speaker since I was in grade school and have always wanted one, or more, of my own.) I'd love to hear from Heritage owners/lovers about the practicality of using a Belle in my set-up. My current system is: vertical Cornwalls for front mains, a single Heresy as my center, and a pair of Heresy's as my surrounds. I listen to these speakers while watching video on a recently purchased 50" Hitachi Widescreen LCD monitor (model: 50V500). To accommodate this large new monitor, I'm clearly going to have to buy (or, more likely, build) a new entertainment center. I'm upgrading from a 27" standard definition television and this monitor simply won't fit on my existing furniture. So, before doing the new furniture thing, I'm thinking a center channel speaker (the Belle Klipsch, or another Cornwall) upgrade would be a prudent consideration. Which brings me to my first question... 1) Since the Belle is nearly a 36" speaker, should its height exclude it from use in my HT system? If I were to get one, due to the form factor of the monitor, the *bottom* of the monitor's screen would wind up being at least 45" off the floor. That's almost four feet off the ground from the bottom of the screen, and seven feet to the top of the screen. That seems kind of high to me. But, I'm not sure. My seating area is about 12' away from the monitor. Neck strain could be a factor with the monitor up that high... 2) I've heard the horn loaded Heritage speakers many times as front mains with a single Cornwall as a center. They sound fantastic together! But, I've never heard a horn loaded speaker, like the Belle, between a pair of Cornwalls. Is there a problem with timbre matching when mixing these style speakers? Or, do they sound as good together as I imagine them to be? Is another Cornwall the better choice? 3) Do any of you have similar systems with pictures you'd be willing to share to give me ideas of what I can do to present this system in a manner that my wife will find acceptable? 4) Does anybody here on the forum have a single Belle they'd like for me to come take off their hands for a *reasonable* price? I'd really appreciate any guidance/advice you Heritage fans can offer me. I'm hoping to make my decision on the direction I'm going to pursue with this center channel speaker and entertainment center setup in the next few days. I need to get the monitor off the old printer stand it's currently sitting on. I fear that if I delay much longer, the WAF will become a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I think another vertical Cornwall as your center speaker would be a better choice than the Belle. If you had horn loaded mains like Khorn's, Belle's or La Scala's it would be the ideal choice though. The vertical Cornwall can be laid on it's side and only be two feet tall about the height of an average stand. The Belle's efficiency is 104db while the Cornwall is 98.5 it would be a bit overpowering and you would have to compensate with the receiver pre/pro channel volume quite a bit. I addition finding a single Belle would not be an easy task either. You may have to buy a another pair of vertical Cornwalls to get one for center duty. The other could always serve as your rear center or you could sell it. You have an incredible HT there just add the center Cornwall and you will be set. Welcome to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Frizn, I have a different take. I have vertical Cornwalls, and have certainly had the center channel issue rear it's ugly head here. First, I want to clear up a misconception regarding the sensitivity of the Cornwalls. In the 60's and 70's, Klipsch used the standard of 98.5 db at 4 FEET at 1 watt of power. The newer versions were spec'd at 101 db at 1 METER with 1 watt of power. The difference of reference distance (4 ft vs 1 meter) make up the difference in the end number (98.5 vs. 101). The sensitivity is the same. Center channel issues: If you use the vertical Cornwall at center, there may be issues here. Ideally, the center channel should be symmetrical. The vertical Cornwalls are not such - when placed on it's side, you will notice the woofer off to the one side vs. the other drivers. This can be a problem if the listener is too close to that speaker, because the woofer (off to the side in the cabinet) plays directional information, and can be heard as "off center" if you are too close to the center channel speaker when listening. If you are a significant distance away from the center, you can probably get away with this. A standard Cornwall of similar age would work best, because it would be timbre matched to other Cornwalls, and would be symmetrical. The Belle would be a good option too, although it is a fully horn loaded speaker....but that would not stop me from doing it. The wider, shorter stance of the Belle make it an ideal center speaker in terms of looks, and solves that symmetry problem. The timbre would be very close. I have 6 Cornwalls in my theater. I have a Belle Klipsch pair too - but elected to keep them in the 2 channel system. This is more for personal reasons than sound acoustic principles (as far as the theater is concerned), as I (and my wife) really enjoy the Belles in the 2 channel room - and using the Belles in my theater currently would mean wasting a Belle (no room for rear center - no where else to go with the second Belle). In another dwelling, I envision the Belles doing duty in the theater (as front and rear centers), but since that setup isn't possible here, I used all Cornwalls in the theater. I use two Cornwalls as centers (the verticals). THAT'S CHEATING, and against sound acoustic principles, but it was the lesser of two evils in my room - either an out of symmetry single Cornwall, or two, which achieves symmetry, but collapses the center sweet spot to a more narrow area. Once I obtain a front projection/other wall mounted video display, then I can do this by the book (single center). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I totally agree with that logic. My brother in law does the same thing, he is using two verts as his centers, Khorn mains, and verts in the rear. Thanks for interesting take, cool to know about the 4ft vs. 1 meter thing I never knew that. This is part of the reasons I frequent here I am always learning new things. I use a La Scala for my center but it is laying on it's side, to compensate for this I purchased a Pro La Scala top section so that I can have the tweeter and mid horn in a horizontal configuration. I initially was going to disconnect the midrange & tweeter in the La Scala and just use the top section drivers. I found that the top of my TV was too narrow to perch the Pro top section on it so I located it on top of my subwoofer just to the right of the TV and left the mid & high section running in the La Scala. I don't notice any anamolies running it in this configuration so I am leaving it as is for now. Now I get plenty of vocal detail. I don't think this scenario is much different than running dual verts for a center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOC_op Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Do you have your vertical Cornwalls flanking your monitor on either side? Or do you have them both underneath it? High high off the floor does your television sit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 The higher efficiency (roughly twice as efficient at +3dbs)of the center can be adjusted and brought into line with the "VOLUME" control for the center channel. Not too tough. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 TOC_op, I bumped my system intro for you, titled "The Cornwall Theatre". There's a few pics (albeit poor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 I have my Cornwall mounted about my TV. You can check out the thread here Cornwall Center Mounted It really sounds awesome. I need to take a picture of the complete system but in my profile you can see the other Cornwalls. In the Center Channel thread you can see Heresys because I was re-finishing the front Cornwalls with paint and spikes at the time. So if you morph the two pictures in your head you can get the whole picture. Laters, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 Jeff - How far away from the TV do you sit?? Do you find any evidence of the directional issues I described?? Does it sound perfectly centered? If you move closer to the speaker as you listen, do you find this to be an issue? Congratulations on your 5 Cornwall theater! Isn't Monopol-y SWEET??? Great looking install, BTW. I tried a center vertical Cornwall on it's side below the TV, and found that I had issues with it as described above. If my listening position was further away, I would have better success. I'm curious as to your observations regarding this in your setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 WoW! TOC_op, its nice to see so many MonopoleCats on the same thread! Having multiple Khorns, Belles and Cornwalls to play with... plus an 8 Klipsch Legend Theater, I would agree with having 5 or 6 Cornwalls in a 5.1 or 6.1 system. 5.1 is the standard... and 6.1 the rare release... as far as discrete channels go. 7.1 is just 6.1 with a fatter rear. As I understand it, the vertical Cornwall was intended to be a lower horizontal center between two conventional Cornwalls. Although the original Cornwall was devised as a three-channel stereo center between fully horn-loaded Khorns the timbre match is a "close... but no cigar" approach. It should be noted, however, that putting your strongest speaker in the front center facilitates an enhanced HT experience... since upwards of 75% of the total sound of a DVD is directed toward the front center slot. Treat your ears to excellence with identical monopole Klipsch in each position... and feed it with a quality 6.1 source... and you will enjoy the best that particular speaker can deliver. -HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 I agree the Center Cownwall...vertical on its side is the home run..Especially if you already have Cornwalls too. Unless your like 8 feet back or closer...I do not find this true at home in my system where I am 15- 16 feet back. It is an INCREDIBLE center, as I keep telling people, between other Cornwalls or even K horns too. The lows to 38Htz, add a sub, and you just FEEL things you never will with a La Scala or Belle..(Sorry, to Belle and La scala lovers, but true!) Sure, not quite as efficent..just turn it up a tad. We can agrue the longer horn on the la scala...vs the corn yes...same driver though... Finding Nemo is incredible... Matrix just feels like your there... Treasure Planet rolls left center right across the screen in amazing clearity.... Even The Eagles..When hell freezes over... just incredible. My 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 ---------------- On 4/11/2004 6:34:14 AM Audible Nectar wrote: Jeff - How far away from the TV do you sit?? Do you find any evidence of the directional issues I described?? Does it sound perfectly centered? If you move closer to the speaker as you listen, do you find this to be an issue? Congratulations on your 5 Cornwall theater! Isn't Monopol-y SWEET??? Great looking install, BTW. I tried a center vertical Cornwall on it's side below the TV, and found that I had issues with it as described above. If my listening position was further away, I would have better success. I'm curious as to your observations regarding this in your setup. ---------------- I am sitting about 9 ft away from the speaker (ears at ~ 10ft) and I don't have any imaging issues with the speaker. It is angled down towards the sweet spot which is a must when you mount your center channel that high. I can really only hear it as a discrete channel when I get within 3 ft of it which is a good thing. Of course when there is only dialogue or a mono soundtrack like Casablanca everything is firmly planted in the center and appears to come from the center of the TV screen (also a good thing). I have spent many hours with speaker placement and the way everything is arranged now is fantastic. For your setup I would suggest trying different angles for the center channel (either up or down) even if it is close to the floor. What you are trying to do is make it sound the best in your room. You may find that it sounds better aimed just in front of you or perhaps aimed over your head etc.. This is not easy to do with a Belle or Cornwall but well worth it before you make anything permanent. The cabinets around my TV are acutally premade "flat-pack" kitchen cabinets from Home Depot. The big units are 24"x24" which is a perfect size for holding equipment. The total cost for all the cabinets was about $300. Of course this is not the best solution for everyone but if you are on a "Trading Spaces" budget like me it is a great solution Laters, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOC_op Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 Thanks so much for all of the feedback everyone! I've attached a picture that will hopefully help to illustrate several problem areas in my home theater/den. This room is going to be changing quite a bit in the near future. We're looking at having the door removed that you see on the right hand side of the picture. This will extend the front of the room a lot and enable me to spread out the equipment clutter. Most importantly, it'll allow me to have that right main speaker in a corner. As you can see, my new television monitor is currently sitting on top of an old printer stand. That's clearly unacceptable in and of itself. Right now, the lower right-hand portion of the monitor actually obstructs the tweeter section of the Cornwall. As you can imagine, that's just simply not acceptable either. Also, you probably noticed that the left-hand side of the monitor obstructs part of the stereo cabinet behind it. There are times that I, literally, have to get up and reach around the monitor to get the remote control of some of those pieces of equipment to work. I'm not going to put up with that very much longer at all! My current plan is to build two towers between 36" and 38.5" tall (I haven't decided which speaker I'll get just yet) x 21.5" wide x 24" deep to accommodate all of the electronic gear in my system. This will also leave room for some DVDs, videotapes, future expansion, etc. in the entertainment center area. Between the towers, I'm thinking about putting this "new" center channel speaker, either a Belle Klipsch, or another Cornwall. (The Heresy you see here in this picture will then become a rear center channel speaker.) Then, I'll connect the two towers with a table top of some sort--and the new television will rest of top of that. After reading your responses, I'm beginning to lean towards making another Cornwall become my new center channel speaker. Firstly, because they are much more plentiful than the Belle. (I've rarely seen a single Belle for sale.) Secondly, because the Cornwall has a footprint that's 5" more narrow than the Belle, and I can clearly use the room in the front of my den. And, thirdly (and, perhaps, most importantly) I bought a pair of Cornwall cabinets from a local Klipsch speaker ghoul just last month. These cabinets are going to be sanded and refinished shortly after the Dallas Stars are knocked out of the NHL playoffs (which hopefully won't happen at all!), or when it's dry enough outside for enough days in a row while I have some time to put in on this project. I have the tweeters and mid horns to put in these cabinets from an old, beaten-up pair of Heresy's. I think Klipsch still sells the k-33 woofers, don't they? If so, that'll leave me with only having to find some crossovers to put in these cabinets to make them fully-functioning Cornwalls again. At any rate, the restoration of these Cornwalls should be done by mid-summer, at the latest. Incidentally, why somebody would want to dissect a pair of perfectly working Klipsch Cornwall speakers, and then sell them as parts on eBay, is a phenomenon that simply alludes me. What an utterly retarded thing to do... At any rate, I really appreciate all the responses and would love to read any more feedback you folks may have! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 TOC - My all Cornwall HT resides in Plano so if you are in the Dallas area and not just a Dallas Stars fan and would like to check it out just let me know. Laters, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOC_op Posted April 13, 2004 Author Share Posted April 13, 2004 ---------------- On 4/13/2004 10:08:27 AM eq_shadimar wrote: TOC - My all Cornwall HT resides in Plano so if you are in the Dallas area and not just a Dallas Stars fan and would like to check it out just let me know. Laters, Jeff ---------------- Hi Jeff! Hey, there's no such thing as "just a Dallas Stars fan", especially this time of year! Seriously, I'd love to take a look at--and listen to--your HT sometime! I live in Arlington. So, I am in the area. I'll PM you soon and we can set something up. Thanks for the offer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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