HornPenguin Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Gentlemen... I need some answers... I'm new to vinyl and have found several good sources with plenty of cheap records. I've purchased about 60 or 70 records lately and plan to aquire many more. The problem is that my turntable sounds like cr*p with my Audio Research SP9 MKII preamp. I mean that it sounds thin, lifeless, no dynamics, distant. You can very much hear that something is very wrong. The turntable is an old Yamaha YP-84 with an Audio Technica AT554Sa cartridge. The same turntable sound good with my NAD 314 integrated amp. I have changed out the tubes on the SP9 with no change in sound. The SP9 sounds great with CD's or the tuner. According to the SP9's manual the input impedance is 47K ohms and can be changed by changing out a resistor. Could it be that the turntable/cartridge are not compatible with the SP9 preamp? What about the differences between MM and MC, what type do I have? Should I have the other? Could it be that there is a real problem with the preamp and it requires servicing? I was considering upgrading the turntable to a Rega 2 or 3, or possibly a Music Hall but do not want if the preamp is bad. Any ideas? Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Sounds like an impedance mismatch alright. Try different inputs; if that fails, then deal with the resistor mod. My cd player sounds bad in the "CD" input on my McIntosh, great on the "Phono" input. Your problem may be related. A MC cartridge is not supported by the phono section of your preamp as far as I know, however all MM cartidges are. Good luck DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 My cd player sounds bad in the "CD" input on my McIntosh, great on the "Phono" input. Your problem may be related. DM ---------------- Doesn't your phono input have RIAA equalization? Something's wrong there or I'm not understanding your reply, sorry to butt in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I'm no expert but I know this much: MM = Moving Magnet MC = Moving Coil MM has higher output and is supported by almost all preamps. MC has lower output and, depending on the output of the particular cartridge (they vary), may require an additional phono pre. Look up your cartridge on the net to get specs on its output. Make sure your phono section supports that output. If it doesn't, that may be your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornPenguin Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Can anyone identify if my cartridge is MM or MC? If it is MC, then I guess that type is compatable with the NAD, explaining why it sounds okay with that preamp. Can I use an MM cartridge on my Yamaha turntable? ---------------- On 4/9/2004 7:29:03 PM D-MAN wrote: Sounds like an impedance mismatch alright. Try different inputs; if that fails, then deal with the resistor mod. My cd player sounds bad in the "CD" input on my McIntosh, great on the "Phono" input. Your problem may be related. A MC cartridge is not supported by the phono section of your preamp as far as I know, however all MM cartidges are. Good luck DM ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Negative on the built-in phono equalization. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 ---------------- On 4/9/2004 7:45:57 PM D-MAN wrote: Negative on the built-in phono equalization. DM ---------------- Cool D-man, thought I must be mistaken. All my pre's have riaa, you must use a pre pre? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 ---------------- On 4/9/2004 7:45:09 PM HornPenguin wrote: Can anyone identify if my cartridge is MM or MC? If it is MC, then I guess that type is compatable with the NAD, explaining why it sounds okay with that preamp. Can I use an MM cartridge on my Yamaha turntable? ---------------- On 4/9/2004 7:29:03 PM D-MAN wrote: Sounds like an impedance mismatch alright. Try different inputs; if that fails, then deal with the resistor mod.... A MC cartridge is not supported by the phono section of your preamp as far as I know, however all MM cartidges are. Good luck DM ---------------- ---------------- Horn, While I can't find info on the AT 554, current AT models designated as AT-plus-a 3-digit number are all MM (moving magnet) with healthy outputs of 3.5 to 5.0 mv (5 cm/sec). To my knowledge, pre-amps with inputs labeled "phono" regularly have the extra gain AND the RIAA equalization needed to accommodate these MM carts. However, more and more preamps in recent years have been "line stage" models withOUT phono inputs. If the SP-9 has a phono stage labeled as such, a MM cart should have a comparable sound to that from so-called "line" inputs like CD players, tuners, etc.-- in other words, just like it does with your NAD. So, maybe your SP-9's phono input needs repair. If the 9 is a tube unit (I'm sure it is), it probably has specific phono tubes and perhaps even one of those is bad. FYI, MC carts have much lower outputs, but over a very wide range; low-output MCs can range from below 0.1 mv to 0.3 or 0.5, while higher-output MCs can deliver 1.0 to even 3.0 mv (at 3.5 or 5cm/sec). As you can see, a 3.0 mv MC could probably be handled by a phono input that handles a 3.5 mv MM. However, many pre-amps don't have enough phono gain to bring a lower-output cart's output up out of the noise floor, requiring a phono-pre that can handle those low voltages. To my knowledge, these all must plug into a line input, not an RIAA phono input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Try connecting the turntable to your NAD and your NAD to one of the ARC line inputs. Use the NAD tape output in order to bypass all the controls. If it sounds better - the ARC's phono section is not good enough. BTW, The SP9 is very much overrated and is not concidered as one of ARC's better preamps. I've owned it and wasn't enthusiastic about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 ---------------- On 4/9/2004 7:39:42 PM rtaylor wrote: My cd player sounds bad in the "CD" input on my McIntosh, great on the "Phono" input. Your problem may be related. DM ---------------- Doesn't your phono input have RIAA equalization? Something's wrong there or I'm not understanding your reply, sorry to butt in. ---------------- Good catch, rtaylor. I don't want to mislead so I'll explain.... The Mc C40 preamp that I have has a single selection for PHONO/AUX. This is accompanied by 2 pairs of separate RCA inputs, and of course, I am using the AUX inputs which bypass the RIAA phono equalization circuits...the impedance is the same though. So as to not confuse, I should have said AUX not PHONO inputs... DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornPenguin Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Great information... thanks guys. I tried the turntable in two other inputs, CD and "spare". It sounded equally as bad as if I had it in the phono input. Next, I hooked the turntable up to the phono section of the NAD, and then hooked the NAD's tape output to the phono input of the ARC. Now the sound was less than great, but *very* much better than previously. From the information that I gathered here and from testing, I now believe that the phone cartridge is not compatable with the phono input on the ARC. Most likely it is the lower impedence MC type. I should probably purchase as new MM cartridge. Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornPenguin Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Guy.. thanks for the great troubleshooting advice. What was it about the SP9 that you did not like? Mine is the MKII, what revision did you have? ---------------- On 4/9/2004 8:53:07 PM Guy Landau wrote: Try colnnecting the turntable to your NAD and your NAD to one of the ARC line inputs. Use the NAD tape output in order to bypass all the controls. If it sounds better - the ARC's phono section is not good enough. BTW, The SP9 is very much overrated and is not concidered as one of ARC's better preamps. I've owned it and wasn't enthusiastic about it. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 ---------------- On 4/9/2004 9:46:44 PM HornPenguin wrote: I tried the turntable in two other inputs, CD and "spare". It sounded equally as bad as if I had it in the phono input.... From the information that I gathered here and from testing, I now believe that the phone cartridge is not compatable with the phono input on the ARC. Most likely it is the lower impedence MC type. I should probably purchase as new MM cartridge. Brad ---------------- Brad, FWIW, I would come to the opposite conclusion. The Audio Technica is most certainly a moving magnet cart, and it's output is well-suited to an MM-based phono input, which the 9 most likely has. Moreover, a more up-to-date MM cart, such the excellent suggestions Wolfram made in the other thread, will deliver much the same output level as your AT! I would humbly suggest that MDeneen is right -- have your 9 checked out, especially since things work so well with your NAD. MC's frequently have output levels that are too low. You have to pay a lot of attention to output voltage specs, and be prepared to buy a phono pre. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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