Me so Horny.

[imahawki]

I had a chance to demo some Klipsch reference series speakers last night. They are on my short list for replacing my Paradigms. I quoted demo because even though this store caries some high mid-fi stuff, its really just a big box (Nebraska Furniture Mart, the larges furniture retailer in all of North America) with poor setups, lots of switching gear in the mix, bad rooms, etc. They are the only authorized dealer in town, but they do have a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. This is not the type of demo Im used to.

Here was the setup.

Speakers - Klipsch RF-25/35, RC-35, and RS-25/35 and alternating between a high-end Klipsch sub being included or not.

Front end/source - Denon receiver (probably a mid line 380x or possibly even a 280x or whatever is out now) and a Denon DVD player.

The speakers were setup on a riser because there is no seating in the rooms, but the tweeters were still well below ear level unfortunately. Also, when listening to movie soundtracks, the arrangement put center channel tweeter well below the L/R tweeters. But here are my thoughts anyway.

Ok, these things sound vastly different than anything Ive ever heard. I really dont think these are brighter than my Paradigm speakers at all. That was kind of a shock. Klipsch is such a love it or hate it sound (according to all Ive heard), that I expected to at least recognize what the Klipsch detractors talk about with brightness, harshness, etc. but I didnt. I must either have top-end hearing loss or just really like a detailed speaker. The sound just seemed really well balanced overall and surprisingly smooth.

First I will describe the music listening; even though I am probably more concerned with HT, I still need a baseline.

The first thing I noticed is that they make my Paradigms seem really flat. And, not in the frequency response sense (or at least thats not how I consciously perceived it) but in the way that they conveyed vocals and separated instruments more. They felt like they added texture to the music (this may or may not be right for the speaker to be doing, but I think it was the speaker doing it). Vocals on these speakers are incredible. The voices seemed to be completely separated from the music, but in a good way. They also do seem forward, but again, not in a frequency response (i.e. bright) sense, but more in an imaging/soundstage sense. There were a couple weird situations where the soundstage seemed very weird but I think the trouble was with the demo itself. The sales person clearly didnt understand the settings and modes on the receiver and I didnt bring my own material, (I know, tsk tsk). Also, all of the CDs the employee had were burned from MP3s (WTF??). In some instances, there was that same vocal separation, but it was as if once this mystical process of kind of drawing out the vocals had occurred, the vocals were then moved to some far away place. Strange effect, but I think it was a combination of poor material and poor setup. But, when the song itself sounded good, the speakers sounded great. I also like the way they filled the room. And I dont mean filled the room in a volume sense (the paradigm monitor series is plenty loud) but maybe made the room seem bigger than it was or something. Again, this is not my room, but still. Its hard to put into words but the overall effect is something that I really like. Overall, the tone seemed good, soundstage and imaging were as good as the situation would allow, and like I mentioned, there was this live, real, texture to the music. None of this may be correct in the audiophilia sense, but Ive ceased to care about any sort of validation in my equipment choices (thats a good thing).

Ok, now for the home theater part.

I really think the speakers shined even more here (except for one issue which I will get to). I listened both with and without a sub, and with both the larger 35 series and smaller 25 series. I think I like the overall sound of the 35 series speakers up front, but dont feel like I would benefit from the larger drivers in the rear. I think the RS-25s performed very well for surround duty. Comments and experiences related to going with a larger surround speaker are welcome. Both models where the dipoles, and I really like the effect. I have had both dipole and direct radiators in my theater at this point. I had dipoles when I still had the Paradigm performance series (Phantoms) but then decided it wasnt worth the cash when I upgraded and I went with Mini Monitors for surrounds. I really think I like the diffuse sound better, but this may just be a preference thing. The vocals were very clear on the movie soundtracks, but unfortunately, all they had was wow-factor type of material so I didnt get very good range. Also, I had to tell the sales person a couple times before he believed me that, no, I really dont listen that loud. By the time he turned it down to my preference, it was hard to judge if it was now too soft or just relatively quieter. Also, Im sure the speakers were not level matched.

Now here is the one problem I mentioned earlier that I really want some comments on. The sales person used the DD (I am 90% sure it was DD) track of Jurassic Park III and the scene (forgive me, Ive never seen the movie before) where the T-Rex fights some other dinosaur. When the people arrive (this is before the fight), they see this one dinosaur on the ground, and Grant says (relax, its dead) and right then, the T-Rex that they didnt see munching on the carcass pops its head up. Now, you should all know that signature T-Rex scream that both pierces the ears and works the sub at the same time, right? Well, when that T-Rex screamed, there was very audible tweeter distortion. It was bad. I listened to it several times to make sure thats what I was hearing, and I heard it on both the RF-25s and RF-35s. But, A) Ive never heard this track before, and maybe there is some distortion on the DVD (hey, Ive seen it before), and this store is the equivalent of a Best Buy where people can walk in and out, change settings, turn gear up way too loud and damage it, etc. I would say the track was peaking at about 90-100+dB when the distortion occurred but Im not sure. I could make it go away by turning it down. Like I said, the salesperson had it turned up louder than I listen at home for sure. I wont tolerate spending that kind of money on speakers that have horribly audible distortion at below reference levels, but who knows what was actually happening with such a sketchy setup.

All and all, these speakers remain on my short list, and really offer something that I was looking for above and beyond the more reserved Paradigms that I have. I would have to rely on an in-home demo with my own gear to make the final decision, but with the 30 day, no questions asked, satisfaction guarantee, it sounds like a pretty safe proposition.

[ekbriggs]

I have that dvd and an all klipsch setup, and along with JP I, i have never heard any distortion even with most of my Hk gear turned up a pretty good way (at least reference level, though i did not have my spl meter). It seems to me that since the salesman turned the system up that loud for you as soon as you came in, then he probably has turned it up ALOT louder for those choice clientel who love to hear it LOUD. Also if there was distortion in the tweeter there is a very good posibility that he might have already cooked it using underpowered gear (for the listening level) or just did not have the denon dialed in right. I can speak for many here when i say that reference level is not a problem with most Klipsch provided that they are setup correctly. Thus it sounds to me like your demo was of a good set of speakers that had been in the wrong set of hands for way too long.

-Eric

[imahawki]

That's what I thought Eric. Do you (or any one else) have any comments about choosing surrounds (size and model) etc?

[yromj]

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On 4/15/2004 12:52:19 PM imahawki wrote:

That's what I thought Eric. Do you (or any one else) have any comments about choosing surrounds (size and model) etc?

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If I were in your shoes, I'd stick w/ the same line, the 35s in this case. This will help ensure better timbre matching and even out the dynamic response throughout the system. When I bought my setup, I didn't hear much difference between the RB-25s and RB-35s, but these are the bookshelves and you're comparing the RFs for the fronts. Therefore, I see what you're saying about the difference in the RSs. However, the difference I did notice was at slightly higher volumes. That's the reason I would stay w/ the 35s for surrounds if you want the 35s for the fronts. If you like the effect of the RSs, go for them, but don't discount the RB-35s for surrounds either, especially for the rear in a 6/7.1 system.

Enjoy the hunt,

John

[Vital]

I had the same issue with the tweeters on my RF-7s at first. Then I reduced the treble from max to about 12 o'clock or 50% whatever you call it and it is perfect. He prolly had the treble maxed like most people do with most speakers. No need for that with Klipsch however.

[IndyKlipschFan]

By the title....

I thought there was finally gonna be a 2 live crew DVD to see on my HT too.. RATZ!

[JLL]

No imahawki I believe you hear the revealingness of Klipsch speakers. You probably heard the microphone that they use in the movie. I sometimes hear this with different DVD's of mine with my RF-3's and its not played that loud. Klipsch speakers do not distort.

Joe

[CAS]

imahawki:

I know exactly what you mean about NFM (Nebraska Furniture Mart). I'm a local as well and can't stand their setup. If you know anything about home theater then you are 99% likely to know more about what you are talking about than the sales rep (although this is the case with all high volume stores). Their subs are also setup in the worst possible way.

The only exception is a senior sales rep that was a big Klipsch fan. He moved from sales to custom installation but sometimes you can still catch him if you would really like some expert help. His name escapes me, but if you just ask for "the Klipsch guy who does custom install" then they'll know who you're talking about. He helped me with my in-ceiling surrounds.

[TheSoundBroker]

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On 4/15/2004 9:44:03 AM imahawki wrote:

Now here is the one problem I mentioned earlier that I really want some comments on. The sales person used the DD (I am 90% sure it was DD) track of Jurassic Park III and the scene (forgive me, I’ve never seen the movie before) where the T-Rex fights some other dinosaur. When the people arrive (this is before the fight), they see this one dinosaur on the ground, and Grant says (relax, its dead) and right then, the T-Rex that they didn’t see munching on the carcass pops its head up. Now, you should all know that signature T-Rex scream that both pierces the ears and works the sub at the same time, right? Well, when that T-Rex screamed, there was

very

audible tweeter distortion. It was bad. I listened to it several times to make sure that’s what I was hearing, and I heard it on both the RF-25s and RF-35s. But, A) I’ve never heard this track before, and maybe there is some distortion on the DVD (hey, I’ve seen it before), and

this store is the equivalent of a Best Buy where people can walk in and out, change settings, turn gear up way too loud and damage it, etc. I would say the track was peaking at about 90-100+dB when the distortion occurred but I’m not sure. I could make it go away by turning it down. Like I said, the salesperson had it turned up louder than I listen at home for sure. I wont tolerate spending that kind of money on speakers that have horribly audible distortion at below reference levels, but who knows what was actually happening with such a sketchy setup.

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You probably heard the amp clipping. Even though the Klipsch are efficient, that doesn't mean you can't run out of power. Given the level the speakers are capable of and your other impressions, it is unlikely the tweeters overloaded. If it was a large space, and the salesperson had the levels turned up high, the little Denon just simply hit the stops...particularly if they had the speakers set up to run full range without a crossover. We run some pretty hefty equipment here (Bryston 9BSST, 14Bsst (you ought to hear 1Kilowatt thru a pair of RF-7's!), 4Bsst, Powerpac 300's, Theta Dreadnaught) and we have that film. I tried it out and couldn't reproduce the problem on our RB-35's which use the same driver.

Kevin

The Sound Broker

Authorized Klipsch Dealer

Oxnard CA

[JewishAMerPrince]

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On 4/15/2004 9:44:03 AM imahawki wrote:

I wont tolerate spending that kind of money on speakers that have horribly audible distortion at below reference levels, but who knows what was actually happening with such a sketchy setup.

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Sounds to me like the receiver was clipping. Could have been a case of the size of the store being so big that the speakers were needing a bunch of power to play that loud. Also, if the receiver was a Denon mid line, be advised that the Denon's really don't put out their rated power. I used to have a 3801 driving my 7 series in my relatively large (<7000 cu ft) listening area. I was able to drive the Denon into clipping without much trouble. Then I replaced the Denon with Rotel separates and have never been able to drive the amps into clipping, it just gets way too loud.

Jerry Rappaport