damonrpayne Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Hi, thank you ALL for your informative posts previously. I got the speaker design programs mentioned in my previous post and realized immediately I am very much over my head. The obviously important effects of the relationship between all the parts and the enclosure was something I completely overlooked. I don't really know how to size the enclosure. My general plan is to use -type E balancing crossover (just won on ebay) -k77 horn and driver -k55 horn and driver -Two 8" Kevlar/paper woofers from partsexpress: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-445 (chosen because I like the sound of the kevlar woofers in the B&W 802, I know its a stretch...) -bannana plug binding posts from partsexpress. I am going with the Heresy horns instead of Heresy II because the parts are much more readily available and I already have the crossover, even though my front mains will be Heresy II. I have a talented audio-savvy woodworker who is willing to help cut the MDF and work with a stainable veneer. I still need to figure out the measurements of the enclosure. Given the parts I've listed above, do you seen any problems? Anything I am completely missing? Thank you so much for your time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 On 4/26/2004 10:34:49 PM damonrpayne wrote: My general plan is to use -type E balancing crossover (just won on ebay) -k77 horn and driver -k55 horn and driver -Two Kevlar/paper woofers from partsexpress --------------- Hi, I would avoid the use of the kevlar woofers. Kevlar drivers generally have some degree of nastiness associated with their resonant frequency and it is probably beyond the scope of your capabilities to adequately modify the crossover to deal with the issue. Also, these woofers are considerably less efficient than the drivers they are replacing. At 88db each, that gives about 91 db for the system. I'd look at these: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-310 Should give you a better match in terms of output (94 db) and they have a nicer roll-off. Probably a better timbre match as well. Of course, both of these woofers are recommended for ported enclosures.... Good Luck, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Yes, the Vifa drivers are very nice, indeed. Those are the same exact ones I have in my towers I built years ago.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I have personally never worked with Klevar woofers so I cannot comment on that aspect, but I would find woofers that work well in sealed enclosures. Designing and building a sealed enclsoure is easier, and its sound would match your (sealed) Heresys more closely. You should checkout the woofers at www.madisound.com because they have a lot wider selection. The Peerless 830411 looks like a potentially good model. Its designed for a sealed enclsoure and has a 88.3dB sensativity rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 You are not going to get good timbre matching using the K-55V & K-77 (HI) instead of the K-76K & K-53K (HII) you will notice the difference. Your call though. Your center is going to be more aggressive than your mains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironwoods Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Hi, I plugged 2 Vifa P21W0-20-08's into WINisd and came out with a +4cu.Ft ported enclosure. That's damn big for a center, as the Heresy's are only about 2 cu.Ft. Your cross-over will also have to be modified to work well with these drivers. If you can get down to a 6.5", you can go a little smaller with the box. I run a KV-3, that is probably the best match for Heresy's, from the Klipsch line anyways. Why not try and duplicate that? Although a used one can be purchased for about $160. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 I agree the KV-3 would be worth trying and for the price you really can't go wrong. a 4cu box, man that is huge! I would just use a damn Heresy II as is and be done with it. Vifa drivers are very nice but most are not that efficient and require large enclosures. Maybe try some Morel 6.5" drivers (M162, M164, M166, M168) they have 3" Hexatech voice coils to boot, they can easily match the output of an average 8" woofer. As stated Madisound has a large variety to chose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Hello Damon- PM and Email me the specs (thiele/Small) on the woofers and I'll see what I can give for advice to see what you can get. If the efficiency is significantly down on the woofers, even running parallel would mean you have to pad the high Frequencies - The E has some limited ability to do so, but probably is not enough without further changes. As to box size - with the specs I can help, but I need to have any 'given' dimensions you may have - for instance is there a limit on the heighth or width? - If we could start with one given dimension we can easily come up with alternatives. If you have some of the free programs mentioned earlier I can probably walk you through it (WINISD is my favorite for the box sizing exercise). Also need to know the thickness of the MDF. I suggest a sealed box as well - it is just a bunch more flexible and less demanding on the design side. As to the variation between Heresy and Heresy II - due to the chenter channel duties being so demanding I find the HI handling of the mid and high freq a very solid match to HII - My ear has no problem with it. Good luck Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Check this out.... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1086740705 Someone is selling an Klipsch 8" driver from a KG3.2. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted April 27, 2004 Author Share Posted April 27, 2004 All right, I am indeed so horribly over my head on this, but I have time. I'm picking up an "intro to speaker design" book first of all. Second of all, maybe I can answer some questions with more questions: -If I wanted to buy k-53 and k-76 horns from Klipsch, how would I go about doing so? -I am planning on using 3/4" mdf, to be covered with a stainable veneer -I found this Morel woofer(http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-040), it doesn't say its designed for a ported enclosure or not. 89db efficient * Vas: 2.47 cu. ft. * Qms: 2.58 * Qes: .75 * Qts: .55 * Xmax: 4.25mm This woofer resulted in a 7cubic foot enclosure in winISD, but I'm sure I did something wrong. -I am guessing if I went with the newer horns my crossover would need to be modified or replaced with an E2? Is this looking more reasonable? I know it would be easier to try to put an HII on top of my TV but what fun would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 Damon, It wouldn't be any fun....but just remember that all of these speaker companies don't employ engineers just because they want to keep white collar workers employed. There's quite a bit to the whole speaker thing. I'd like to make a Heritage home theater as well. The lack of a matching center is troubling though. If I try building my own, I will use the bass drivers from the Academy (assuming I can get them from Klipsch). This reduces the work for me because they will work in a sealed enclosure, I know the dimensions of the box and they should meet the efficiency criteria without presenting an unduly tough load on the amp. Then, it's mostly just a matter of trying to match the woofers output to the mid/tweet, because I would prefer to use the same mid/tweeter across the front 3 speakers. On timbre matching, right now I have Infinity IL40s and an IL36C for my front speakers. They use the same mid/tweeter combo. The 36 is sealed and uses 2 6.5" woofers. The 40s are ported and use a single 8". I am sometimes disturbed by the audible change in the tone of voices as they pan from the center to the mains and vice-versa. These drivers are made of the same material! It is very difficult to achieve a seamless blend! That single Heresy is probably looking pretty good right now.... Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 The Academy drivers are indeed still available from Klipsch. You can just about get all the Academy parts you need, then all you need to do is build a sealed rectangular enclosure. Keep in mind the cost for even just building an Academy is going to run around $400. The parts alone I think priced out around $336. The K-76 and K-53 should also still be available but you will have to call Klipsch parts 1-800-Klipsch. Even using alternate drivers building a custom center will still not be cheap. I would rather spend more time enjoying, than worrying if things will sound right. I do admit it is a fun, interesting and good learning experience to build your own center. I just bought a used La Scala for $300, layed it on its side and put my Sony 43" RPTV on top of it at violah! Center Channel. I was using a KV-4 before that, and a KG 2.2V before that. See the progression here! Then I found an '86 La Scsala top section on eBay for $75 so I have it horizontally oriented to improve the center dispersion pattern. Not bad for having $375 invested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 IIRC, generally woofers with a Qts higher than .4 work well in sealed enclosures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted April 27, 2004 Share Posted April 27, 2004 On 4/27/2004 10:22:58 AM damonrpayne wrote: -If I wanted to buy k-53 and k-76 horns from Klipsch, how would I go about doing so? Call 1-800-KLIPSCH and talk to the parts department and check pricing the watch eBay. I see K-53s from time to time. BTW, I have a K-76 that I might be willing to part with. On 4/27/2004 10:22:58 AM damonrpayne wrote: -I am planning on using 3/4" mdf, to be covered with a stainable veneer Good plan! On 4/27/2004 10:22:58 AM damonrpayne wrote: -I found this Morel woofer(http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-040), it doesn't say its designed for a ported enclosure or not. 89db efficient * Vas: 2.47 cu. ft. * Qms: 2.58 * Qes: .75 * Qts: .55 * Xmax: 4.25mm This woofer resulted in a 7cubic foot enclosure in winISD, but I'm sure I did something wrong. Sometimes these programs go too far trying to get a couple extra Hertz of low end. I'll take a look at them when I have a few more minutes. On 4/27/2004 10:22:58 AM damonrpayne wrote: -I am guessing if I went with the newer horns my crossover would need to be modified or replaced with an E2? Yes, I believe both the E2 and the new Herrsy II networks use the same T2A autoformer (which is likely the most expensive part) so you should be able to convert it by changing connections and maybe a few cap and inductor values. On 4/27/2004 10:22:58 AM damonrpayne wrote: Is this looking more reasonable? I know it would be easier to try to put an HII on top of my TV but what fun would that be? That's the spirit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Check out the Eminence beta 8" woofer, parts express # 290-404. It sells for $ 47.06 usd and will work fine if you do not have a regular rube type television. Just ran some numbers in the parts express box program. Looks like 2 beta 8" in a 4.06 cu ft ported enclosure would be quite nice. Of course you could make a smaller enclosure, but this would be the maximally flat response. The numbers are as follows, 4.06 cu ft enclosure ( internal measurements are 30.97" x 19.14" x 11.83" ) with 4 2" diameter ports 1.83" long. Tuning frequency comes in at 52.17 hz with a theoretical f3 of 45.32 hz. Sensitivity is 94 db, so two in parallel would give you 97 db/1 watt, the same as the midrange and tweeter. Impedance is 8 ohms each, so the crossover would have to be changed to keep the crossover point at 700 hz. Specs are as follows: Specifications: * Power handling: 225 watts RMS * Voice coil diameter: 2" * Le: 0.58 mH * Impedance: 8 ohms * Re: 6.36 ohms * Frequency range: 55-4,000 Hz * Magnet weight: 34 oz. * Fs: 58 Hz * Vas: 1.25 cu. ft. * Qms: 6.54 * Qes: .36 * Qts: .34 * Xmax: 3.0 mm * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 8.24", Cutout Diameter: 7.13", Mounting Depth: 3.5". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Damon - you have mail. I tend to agree with Hurd - I am a big fan of Emminence. My message shows you what happens with the Morel (Good sealed box speaker - just way off on the efficiency and has an interesting resonance freq in all designs I tried). I would also think about full time use of a sub - then your LF becomes less of an issue and the world opens up for high efficiency speakers that can get significantly enough below a 80hz management point and work splendidly in a sealed box. Welcome to speaker building - It can become quite addicting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 I concur with the use of Eminence speakers - some twenty years back, I built a set of speakers using 10" Eminence woofers for home use. A few years after that, I dismantled the set and used the woofers in a ported enclosure for my car stereo setup (big box in the back of a minivan, with three 10" woofers, two ported and one sealed). These are EXCELLENT speakers, unlike the crapola Pyle's I bought back in the day when I couldn't afford anything better (and whose foam surrounds have long since deteriorated, whereas the Eminence accordion surrounds which are still intact...) Eminence sound good, are durable, and last a long time. Popbumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 Keep in mind the sensitivity/efficiency rating of the woofers need not exactly match the overall sensitivity of the Heresy speaker itself. For instance the KG4 speaker is rated at 94dB but the K-8-K woofers used in it only have a rating of 88.6dB (so even using two only yields 91.6dB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STL Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 That Eminence beta 8 does look like a nice driver, but why not just build a much smaller 2 cubic foot enclosure and vent it to 65Hz? That would theoretically give you a F3 of 60Hz which is lower then the Heresy II can play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avman Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 ---------------- On 4/27/2004 10:22:58 AM damonrpayne wrote: I know it would be easier to try to put an HII on top of my TV but what fun would that be? ---------------- Klipsch just sent me my '04 heresy2 unfinished oak speaker...give me some time and i can answer that ? it is going between the '82 cornwalls,and the '85 heresy 2's are pulling rear surround duty.. seriously,i'll be following this,and i hope it works out well for you. avman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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