Davec Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 Doing first Home Theater with Projection TV.. as we are finishing basement. Need to wire for system in next day or two as we are drywalling at end of week. While I see quite a lot of debate on issue, what is a quality speaker wire for the money. (I am spending about $2,000 on Klipsch speakers (KLF 20s,C7, RS3 and KSW-12) and another $700 on receiver. Also, how do I go about figuring how much I need. Any other suggestions on what needs to be taken care of from wiring perspective (before its too late after dry walling - or at least gets more expensive). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenten Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 It's nice to wire ahead of time, lets you take the time to do things right. I would recommend 12 guage wire (could use Monster Cable in wall). They have 2 & 4 wire applications that are rated for such. Make your runs as to avoid crossing electrical wires @ 90 degrees (can go through the ceiling if necessary). If you use conduit you will be able to change wire later much easier. Measure and plan, let us know how it turns out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 I would also leave about five or six feet extra at each end of the speaker cable runs. This will allow for changes later on (different equipment and/or location. Running all the wires through the ceiling would probably be the easiest to get at later as said before by keeping them away from all AC lines and especially flourecents. ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany McIntosh C33 Rotel RB-1080 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Ortofon VMS-30 mkII Cartridge Stanton 999SS Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 400mk II Monster Interlink 300 mk II Studio Tech U-48RW Cabinet Monster Power HTS-5000 Original 12ga. Monster Cable Enough empty boxes for a fire hazard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 9, 2001 Share Posted July 9, 2001 Great advice guys... especially about using pvc for the runs. Use larger diameter pvc than you think you will need... a few bucks in extra in pvc goes along way to hassle-free future alterations... and becomes a home selling point should that be in your future. I usually leave a string in the pvc on top of the wires. That becomes my "in place fish" should I need to pull another wire. If I do pull another wire, I attach another string to the front end so that I will have yet another fish in place for the next inevitable event. This is also a good time to put a subwoofer in the place that you will be your "sweet spot" location... then go to all the proposed speaker locations and listen high and low, a little left, a little right... and mark the places were the sound is best (don't forget height) and place your speakers there. This may affect where your pvc runs will be. A good job here will pay dividends for the life of the dwelling. Congrats on doing it right up front! HornEd ------------------ "Where Legends Live! Klipsch Powered HT" FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF C7 Center, KLF 30 Mains, KLF 10 Front Effects BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30 L&R Side/Surrounds, KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra sub with Samson Megawatt Amp SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver and such... Tweakin' On! Cornwall II / KSW-15 Music Room Under Construction This message has been edited by HornEd on 07-09-2001 at 08:20 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davec Posted July 10, 2001 Author Share Posted July 10, 2001 Thanks for feedback. One question for HornEd though - what is the best place/way to find the "sweetspot location" for the sub-woofer (KSW-12)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Davec, If you do a forum search on subwoofer location you will find a very large number of posts talking about the pros and cons of various locations, and the different means of locating the "best" spot for your subwoofer in your room. One way that seems to work for a lot of people is to place the subwoofer in the location where you sit and listen to the system, then walk around the room, and listen to the quality (depth, articulation, even-ness of frequency coverage) of the bass sound. It usually works out that placing the sub at the location where the bass sounds the best when the sub is sitting in the listening position will be the best spot for the sub. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 It always seems to work out right when Garrison mans the Klipsch... Ray's way is tried and true and should get you to your rooms top "S-spot"... Positioning speakers is not always a "heads up" affair...! Be sure to keep your ears down to the level where your KSW-12 gonna live... Once I even got a hit when I mounted my sub at ear height in the sweet spot in order to reach first bass!HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Davec - When I wired my home during construction, my local audio store offered to let me have a new roll of the wire they use in installations. I could use what I needed and they would just charge me (per foot) what I used. You might wanna explore that option. As for wire, I used above said wire which is two single 16 ga. conductors inside a sheath. I had a concern about it only being 16 ga., but was assured that was fine for surround speakers and the short wire runs. This store does a lot of custom installations, so I believe their opinions. The wire is also UL listed. Concerning wire runs - I think what Quenten meant to say is that if you have to cross any 110/120v wires, make sure your speaker wire crosses them at 90 degrees (right angle). Running parallel to 110/120v increases chances of hum. I was unsure which of three possible locations would be best for my sub, so I ran RG6 coax to each of the three locations. I now have two unused coax wallplates but what the heck. Tom Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Davec - When I wired my home during construction, my local audio store offered to let me have a new roll of the wire they use in installations. I could use what I needed and they would just charge me (per foot) what I used. You might wanna explore that option. As for wire, I used above said wire which is two single 16 ga. conductors inside a sheath. I had a concern about it only being 16 ga., but was assured that was fine for surround speakers and the short wire runs. This store does a lot of custom installations, so I believe their opinions. The wire is also UL listed. Concerning wire runs - I think what Quenten meant to say is that if you have to cross any 110/120v wires, make sure your speaker wire crosses them at 90 degrees (right angle). Running parallel to 110/120v increases chances of hum. The actual path your wire takes is up to you. I just bored thru studs like the electricians. I was unsure which of three possible locations would be best for my sub, so I ran RG6 coax to each of the three locations. I now have two unused coax wallplates but what the heck. Tom Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLUngurait Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 OK guys...allow me to play devil's advocate alittle here...couldn't the acoustics of the room change dramatically after the drywall is put up and flooring and furniture installed...this would make checking for optimal sub-placement prior to these events a very non-exact science. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Adams Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 >this would make checking for optimal sub-placement prior to these events a very non-exact science.< My feelings exactly Dave. That's why, in my circumstance, I made some educated guesses and even FAX'd a sketch of my room to Tom Vodhanel @ SVS to determine about where to place the coax jacks for the sub. My thoughts were that after the house was finished out, I could tweak the sub's location from one of the three different locations. Tom Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 The drywall will have an effect, but at lower bass frequencies the effect will be minimal. If you're using standard drywall on standard framing, the walls will be practically transparent, as far as your subwoofer (and, by the way, any unfortunate souls sitting on the other side of that wall...) is concerned. Using 2 X 6 framing and filling the interior with acoustic batting specifically designed for sound deadening, or doubling up the framing / drywall and offsetting the studs, will reduce the amount of "leakage" of bass frequencies out of your room, but basically, throwing up the walls and framing them is not going to change the lower bass all that much. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted July 10, 2001 Share Posted July 10, 2001 Davec- May I suggest using Monster Cable CL3 (In-Wall fire rated) for all of your speaker runs. Your mains (KLF-20's) are Bi-wireable and I would definitely use this feature as it can not hurt. You will need to ask for either 14/4 or 12/4 (14 gauge/4 conductor or 12 gauge/4 conductor). Smaller gauge =Bigger wire. I use Monster 14/4 for my KLF-30's and my entire system and I am extremely happy. Good cables at a affordable price. You will need to determine wire runs for your mains and leave yourself 5-6 feet extra at each end at least )I used 10 feet extra because my Receiver is approximately 6 feet from the floor in Ent. Center. Use 14/2 or 12/2 for your KLF-C7 and your RS-3's. Depending on your receivers bass management, you may want to run a 14/4 wire to your sub location in addition to your coax cable for LFE to allow for both Line level and speaker level inputs on sub. Some receivers will not send sub out signal unless listening to 5.1 material. Ideal location for RS-3's will be on side walls about 5-6 feet from the floor. the important part will be location front to back Monster CL3 14/4 should run about $0.65/ft. if you buy in bulk over 100 ft. I would also consider buying the Niles wall speaker plates that have five way binding posts. You can buy Niles or Radio Shack carries the exact replica and you CAN NOT tell the difference and you'll save quite a few bucks. These wall plates will give your system that professional look and the posts are gold colored knurled material with red and black bands on them they also accept banana posts. P.S. Are RS-3's bi-wireable?? Any other questions? Brett ------------------ My main Klipsch system: KLF-30's Bi-wired KLF-C7 KSP-S6's KSW-15 Front Sub KSW-100 Rear Sub Monster cable 14 gauge in-wall cable Niles SPS-4 speaker switch box Niles wall plates Marantz SR-8000 Toshiba SD-4205 5 DVD changer Pioneer PDF-1007 301-CD changer Mitsubishi 35" TV Mitsubishi VCR Pioneer VSX-608 Multi-room amp for Outdoor deck Polk All-weather AW2's deck speakers Niles in-wall volume controls Klipsch IC-525's in Master Bath 13" Sony Wega in Master Bath Fridge full of beer and plenty of Don Julio, Jagermeister and Jim Beam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davec Posted July 11, 2001 Author Share Posted July 11, 2001 Brett - great advice however, not I've got more questions!: 1. I changed to the KLF 20's for the back as well (instead of RS3's). Does this change any of your comments? As they are larger speakers, should they be placed further behind listening area or still on the sides? 2. Hate to sound stupid, but what does bi-wireable mean? I got a price on 16 guage 278-1106 in wall at Radio shack that was pretty good $18 for 50. Do you think it is worth spending extra on the 14 guage - which I believe Tweeter quoted at .52 cents a foot not sure if that was 14/2 or 14/4 though? 3. For the Sub Woofer, I was going to use the 12 ft. Goldseries from Radio Shack for about $17 and the Megacable Premium speaker cable 16 awc from Radioshack for the main KLF 20's and Center C7. Tweeter was pushing Monster at higher prices - once again worth it? 4. Did not quite follow your comments about running the 14/4 wire to the sub woofer. I saw another post though where someone did seem to be having this problem. Am I connecting both wires into the sub-woofer? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 davec, try the site's below. go to FAQ. it will answer most of your questions. www.audioasylum.com www.davidmannaudio.com good luck and leave plenty of slack. danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 Davec- Wow, you are building a great system with 4 KLF-20's!!!. RE: Question 1. Placement of KLF-20's as rears, I THINK, should now be further behind the listening position sweet spot and my feelings would be to "mirror" the front KLF-20's as far as toe-in angle and distance from listener if possible. The Legends and all Klipsch speakers have a very wide sweet spot due to the 90 degree tweeter and mid horns. Again Legends will sound best if located at least 18" from any wall or corner. Also make sure you use the floor spikes to improve bass response (they will come with the speakers). #2 Bi-wireable means the speakers accept TWO sets of speaker wires from your receiver or Amplifier(s). The thought here is it allows the signal to be split at the speaker into high and low frequencies and then sent to the proper driver(s). Bi-wiring is a controversial topic and its benefits have been debated, while most agree it will improve sound. Bi-Amping on the other hand is unanimously agreed as the ideal solution for noticable sound improvement (2 amps driving two speakers) As far as speaker wire from Radio Shack I would not use 16 gauge wire at all in your system. I would use minimum 14 gauge. Monster Cable is a little bit more but how much are you spending on speakers??!! Cheap speakers buy cheap wire, performance speakers (Klipsch) buy at least a middle of the road wire. Klipsch just agreed/partnered to use Monster Cable in all of their speakers. 3. As far as sub-cables go this is an area that many believe Monster definitely makes a better cable. I personally agree here. Make sure you use the y-splitter if you buy the Monster Sub cable it will increase output of your KSW-12 by 6db. Let us know what you decide and maybe you can post a photo of the room or give us room dimensions and I am sure people will have plenty of suggestions on placement quickly for you. My thought is that the investment you are making will last you 20 years or more or at least until you get bitten by the upgrade bug, so why not do it right. Compare the the total cost of all your cables (assuming same gauge) at Radio Shack and with Monster Cable and then decide if it's worth the extra cash......My $.02, hope this helps. ------------------ My main Klipsch system: KLF-30's Bi-wired KLF-C7 KSP-S6's KSW-15 Front Sub KSW-100 Rear Sub Monster cable 14 gauge in-wall cable Niles SPS-4 speaker switch box Niles wall plates Marantz SR-8000 Toshiba SD-4205 5 DVD changer Pioneer PDF-1007 301-CD changer Mitsubishi 35" TV Mitsubishi VCR Pioneer VSX-608 Multi-room amp for Outdoor deck Polk All-weather AW2's deck speakers Niles in-wall volume controls Klipsch IC-525's in Master Bath 13" Sony Wega in Master Bath Fridge full of beer and plenty of Don Julio, Jagermeister and Jim Beam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted July 11, 2001 Share Posted July 11, 2001 Davec, Is there anyway you can hook up your front speakers now and test them with different types of wires? That way you would only have to buy short pieces and you could decide what you like before making your final run's. I have a pair of KLF20's and I tried 4 different brands of wires before I stayed with Audiquest. For my room the solid wire sounded the best to ME. I am in the process of selling my present house and when I move and setup my system again I may not like the sound of the Audioquest anymore. I would bi-wire the front's if at all possible. When I did this the sound just got smoother to ME for 2 channel. The spikes will make a slight difference, but speaker placement will make the most difference.You will be moving them around for hours before you decide where they sound the best. While you are at Radio Shack I would get a Sound Level Meter now. Don't put the spikes on until the speakers,interconnects,speaker wire and electronics have all been broken in and you are done sliding the speakers around. Those puppies are heavy. I just installed a new 2 channel system about two weeks ago and in the last couple of day's it just started to sound so good. I bought new speakers, speaker wire and interconnect's and I think everything is starting to finally break in. Good luck. danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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