Cu colored cones

[J M O N]

In regards to the "plastic" baskets giving out after 10, 20, or who know how many years, I agree that that could be a concern. However, we don't know that the problem is going to ever be a problem. It may very well not ever become a problem. Even if it does become a problem eventually, one thing for sure is that they will still sound better than stamped metal baskets. My personal preferance (may not be everyone's), would be to sacrifice the lifespan of the woofer for the sake of better sound quality (provided that lifespan is reasonable). If and when the basket ever does give out, I would just replace them with new ones. Of course that's me. My ARC amplifier is built with vacuum tubes that burn out over time, and I have to replace them if I want to continue to use it. ARC could have used solid state components that will last much, much longer than vacuum tubes, but they don't sound as good to me. So I'm willing to replace vacuum tubes periodically to maintain the better sound quality.

I do agree with some of John Warren's opinions. My favorite Klipsch speakers are all in the Heritage line and it is my opinion that these are Klipsch's best speakers. All of these speakers were designed decades ago. I believe that none of the more recent designs have not surpassed the Heritage line and am disappointed that Klipsch really hasn't come out with anything that can really compete with the Heritage series. I think this is something that has happened since PWK sold the company and became less involved. The Forte and Chorus lines are more recent and were both very good speakers, but those are still ~15 year old designs. The Klipschorn Jubilee, which is being worked on by PWK, is something that provides some hope (pun not intended!).

However, I do understand that Klipsch is in the business to make money. They have to be profitable in order to survive. It is very difficult to survive as an audio equipment company. Some very good companies have gone out of business (most recently, I heard that Hales Design Group filed for bankruptcy). So I can understand that Klipsch needs to have some products that are more "mainstream" in order to be profitable and to survive. As a Klipsch fan, I for one don't want to see Klipsch go out of business so I can live with some of their business practices and the products they put out. The report is that Klipsch is now #2 in sales dollars. I'm pretty sure they weren't that high back when they weren't "mainstream". My only hope is that they don't becoming another JBL and produce marginal home audio loudspeakers. At least they haven't gone that far and they still offer the Heritage line. Even their "mainstream" products are still pretty darn good within their price points in my opinion.

Of course engineering is not the only factor at work. The best engineered products aren't always the most successful. The best marketed products usually are (Bose is the greatest example of that). There are a lot of examples of great engineered products that were defeated by lesser products. The copper colored cones are a result of marketing, not engineering.

So, will the "LLC be around in 20 years to bail you out" when (if) your plastic woofer baskets give out? I don't know, but I sure hope they are. But in order for that to happen, they have to practice smart business and that probably means providing more "mainstream" products. I may not be completely happy with the direction Klipsch has gone, but at this point, I understand the reasoning and really can't criticize what they have done.

[jdm56]

It seems to me that if the copper coloring only serves to keep the aluminum layer of the cones fron corroding or discoloring, then that would be a good thing. Right? Nobody would like their woofer cones going all cloudy and dull on them.

As for plastic baskets, I can see pros and cons. It just depends upon the execution of the design and manufacture. Could be great, could be lame. I guess we'll know more about it down the road a bit.

I can't really comment on the Reference Series sound, as I have not heard any of the new ones. But I would not expect them to sound better than the Heritage line, considering the price difference, and the compromises made to keep their cabinets stylishly slim.

One must remember that the old PWK designs represent one mans' vision of affordable high quality speaker for music lovers. I would guess that the newer models are not the product of one persons' vision, and that thay are aimed at a much broader spectrum of potential buyers and uses.

------------------

JDMcCall

[Guest BobG]

I hope all who've contributed to this thread will respond once again after hearing the new RF-7 and RF-5.

[cc1091]

BobG -

I've heard the new RF-5 and added an IMHO review to the "RF-5 Sighting" thread of the "General Questions" area. Please keep in mind that I like my RP-3s a lot, and purchased them over the RF-3s that were available at the time. I also own Heresys (which are presently unused waiting for a better listening environment than my present abode) and a pair of B&W 602s.

I'm sure others will hear the RF-5 differently than I.

[WMcD]

I for one think the copper color is good looking. I'll let the sonic attributes speak for themselves.

The following is serious. Could the horns be plated to match? That would give a balanced look to the whole thing.

Gil

[cc1091]

I certainly have no problem with the sund coming from the cone in my Rp-3s, they just look cheesy to me. I also think the speaker has a much better sound with the grilles on. My B&W 602s on the other hand, sound and look much better with the grilles off.

To each, his own.

[John Warren]

Actually Gil, the "plated horn" version of the RF-7 will be introduced later this year as the RF-10.

[Mr. Blorry]

Hey John!

Will the new RF-10 also have neon running lights? Maybe have the word "Klipsch" silkscreened in white down the grille cloth!

[cc1091]

<chuckle>

Perhaps the neon running lights and silkscreen kit will be offered as an aftermarket package along with a KSW-12 for bass reinforcement.

[T2K]

You boys are a bunch of sick puppies.

Keith

This message has been edited by talktoKeith on 07-18-2001 at 12:54 AM

[WMcD]

I'll assume that John is serious.

This might be an illustration that "great minds think alike."

On the other hand, such is hardly inductive and deductive logic. Weak minds may think alike too.

Gil

[John Warren]

I was in CC this weekend and I saw

Infinity has a gimmick called the

"Ceramic Metal Matrix Diaphragm"

or C. M. M. D. NOT to be confused with

"Ceramettallic" cones.

Joe Sixpack must be "boggled" by all this new fangled

technojumble!!

This message has been edited by John Warren on 07-23-2001 at 10:58 AM

[Shock-Late]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr. Blorry:

If you think the copper cones are cheesy, have you looked at the baskets that hold everything together? I haven't looked inside the newest RFs, but my K dealer was "proudly" displaying a raw Reference grade woofer, and I almost choked when I saw the speaker basket was plastic. PWK must be saying

"This is not my beautiful speaker! This is not my beautiful company! My God! What have I done!"

---

In my opinion, "plastic" (Injected ABS actually, if my memory's good) has very good damping qualities, specially when compared to a K33 woofer basket for example...Please guys, don't begin wasting time laughing about the "plastic baskets" or the "colored cones"! Our beloved heritage series has the worst and cheapiest looking woofers and drivers ever made, and they sound quite good!! That said, the speakers in the reference series are, to my point of view, technically superior (in their own context of course, as it would maybe not be a great idea to make an ABS basket for a 15inches cone).

frans

[oosting]

I hate to pour water on the fire, but. If the plastic basket is soooooo good, why aren't they used on pro model speakers?

1) Metal baskets resonate at high frequencies. Not at the frequencies that the driver operates at. At what frequencies do the plastic baskets resonate?

2) Metal baskets are much more labor and investment intesnive to manufacture. One-stop injection molding is much faster and cheaper than making a cast metal or stamped metal basket.

3) Aluminium cones are much simpler to manufacture. Just stamp them out from a roll of Al sheet and then whip them in the anodize bath for 1/2 hour. Manufacturing a good paper or Kevlar cone is much more involved.

Aluminium cone/ plastic basket drivers make sense for very large production runs. They work well enough for the type of loudspeaker they are intended for.

Ed

[WMcD]

I speak a bit from ignorance. However, I wouldn't expect that all products are going to switch over to a new material immediately, even if it is better, or cheaper.

I'd think that the woofer manufacturers may have a big stock of cast or stamped frames, or long term commitments to purchase from parts suppliers.

A switchover is costly in itself and that would have to be justified by a significant savings in the short run.

Therefore, it is probably inaccurate to conclude that "plastic" is not a good development, simply because all product lines, and producers, haven't jumped on the bandwagon right away.

Gil

This message has been edited by William F. Gil McDermott on 07-26-2001 at 08:49 PM

[John Warren]

I don't think so Gil. Anyone that works in manufacturing today knows that inventory is a thing of the past.

the best drivers have huge magnet assys resulting in large G-forces at the frame web when bumped. By the LLCs own admission, the plastic frames break with 10" baskets. Most pro drivers are 12 and 15" with enormous motor structures.

Also too, I wonder how well the LLC investigated the frames that they say did not crack?

[WMcD]

John,

Okay, I would't doubt you.

Gil

[djk]

JBL switched from Alnico to ceramic magnets for woofers in 1979.The cast aluminum frames broke.They had to re-design the frame casting and go to a different alloy.

[John Warren]

When I buy a used cast basket driver, I give them a close going over with a 10X Hastings Triplet. I have found the ocassional crack in what appeared to be perfect drivers.

Can't do that on Ebay.

This message has been edited by John Warren on 07-30-2001 at 05:02 AM

[John Warren]

Now here is an interesting quote pulled form another thread on this forum.....

"I just spent some time a/b listening to the 5's & 7's and I liked the 5's better. The bass was tighter but the 7's ARE more efficent. The guy at the store stated that the new copper cones take a LONG time to break-in (100hrs) and the 5's were broken-in..."

Ok, who propogates this information, the dealer, the LLC? What are the physics underlying Aluminum cone break-in vs. paper cone. Why 100hrs? at what frequency? what is "breaking in" anyway??

The BS is so deep its stands alone as its own form of ENTERTAINMENT!

This message has been edited by John Warren on 07-29-2001 at 09:18 AM