Ou8thisSN Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Hi folks, So today i was extremely excited to recieve a 1083 (denon 3803). I hooked up the RF7s to it and found something quite surprizing. The bass was totally gone! I didnt have a subwoofer hooked up, I turned the bass up all the way to +10db, and was listening in stereo mode, there was barely any bass at all. The treble was fine and sounded great but the bass was absolutely non-existant. I was totally confused. I set the speakers to large and turned the subwoofer to off, but i got nothing! So i start freaking out thinking its the amplifier and reconnect the RF7s back to the existing Onkyo Reciever I had to the speaker A input and Again I get NO BASS! Same with the denon. Now i;m even more confused becuaes it worked fine just the day before. So just for fun, i decide to hook up the RF7s to the "speaker B" input on the Onkyo reciever and wham the bass is back! what the hell is going on here? how is it possible that I get no bass on the denon no matter what i try, and only bass on the speaker B input on the onkyo???? it was never like this, it obviously cant be a reciever issue if I can experience the same problem on both recievers, is it a wire issue?? please please help! is this the strangest thing you've heard? also, i had banana plugs running on the RF7s and into the Onkyo, but i had to take them off for the denon because they orient their binding posts vertically and not horizontally, and the banana plugs wont fit, so i tried bare wire, so i had to keep switching back and forth. But when i went from "speaker a" on the onkyo, i got no bass even with banana plugs, and on "speaker b" with banana plugs i get plenty of great bass. what is the issue?? thanks for reading the post of a freakking out member... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancestorm Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 I keep refreshing this thread because it is an interesting question and one I'd like to know what is causing it. I don't have a suggestion... but I will provide a bump.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Phillips Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Try the Denon in Direct Mode. It may be the Denon is set to "small mains". When in Direct, the mains are full range as they would be when set to "large" The same with the Onkyo, I am not sure, but it may default to Large when using the "B" speaker out. Some receivers set to small as default, but when in "B" speaker out, they set to "large" or full range. Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 The RF-7s are probably not receiving a signal below the crossover frequency on the receiver. The receiver is the problem in other words. The RF-7s bass is very good with a receiver that is setup properly. Without a subwoofer, the mains should be set to large. If you have a sub, then the settings are a matter of personal judgement and experimentation in your listening room. Stereo direct bypasses the crossover on receivers, so the mains get the full signal down to 20 Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 you are absolutely correct. I forgot that I was using the Onkyo "Speaker A" inputs in 5.1 with subwoofer upstairs, and forgot to turn off the subwoofer input. I went back downstairs and turned off the subwoofer input and the bass was back, just like it had always been on "speaker b", on the onkyo. "speaker B" always had the subwoofer as OFF so the bass was always present. So that rules out the Onkyo and the wires as a problem, so its just the Denon. what is interesting to note here is that the RF7s sound EXACTLY like the Denon, when it was running in Speaker A with the Subwoofer as off. This was in stereo mode with full tone controls, just like the onkyo, so I dont understand why i wont have the same freedoms with the Denon, unless the denon itself is malfunctioning... as in reference to running in direct mode, if I do that, i still lose the tone controls, regardless if it defaults to setting the speakers at large, and I still wont get the bass I want. it wont hurt to try though.. Why is this a problem in stereo mode? why is it cutting off the bass even without a subwoofer at the subwoofer cross over point? I assure you that it IS disabled in the menu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwatkins Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 I may not be specifically helpfull, but here goes: The Denon should sound just fine - So, did you try it in direct mode? If you did and all sounds fine then there is probably a parameter problem in the Denon. If it stays the same you have an amp problem. Since it sounds just like the Onkyo with bass management enabled I would bet there is still a parameter issue. Denon manuals are notoriously difficult to decipher - It is as if the person that wrote them has English as a fourth language. So you may want to step back a bit and look at all the parameter settings. The first thing that comes to mind is that Denon's large and small setting is separate from the subwoofer on/off . This could very well be the culprit - check to be sure they are set to large. Also (if I remember correctly - the unit isn't in front of me at the moment) you may want to be sure that the bass management parameter isn't a problem - you may have to fiddle a bit to be able to find it. You will also find that each mode can be set independently as 2 channel, five channel, large, small, etc. by input (CD, DVD, TV, etc.) so it has to be done for the specific input to be effective. Direct does no additional processing and is always the place to test the primary working portions of the amp. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 well, i have tried all sorts of combinations with this amp and i cannot get full range bass out to the speakers, no matter what i try. like i said, i was able to fix the bass management issue with the Onkyo amp. On Speaker A, when I set the subwoofer to off, all the bass frequencies started going to the RF7s and they sounded beatiful, just like they always did with Speaker B where the Subwoofer was also disabled... But on the denon, I cannot percieve any difference as to when the speakers are set to large or small, with the subwoofer on or off, with "LFE" or "LFE + MAIN", no matter what I try, I cannot get full range bass to the RF7s, in Stereo Mode. Direct and Pure Direct mode dont help me because they disable tone controls and i'm specifically testing for bass signals. The treble is fine, the treble from the Denon sounds just like the treble from the Onkyo, so thats not an issue. On the denon though, with everything disabled including subwoofer, stereo speakers set to large and the tone bass control on +8, sounds exactly like my onkyo where the subwoofer is enabled and crossed over at 80hz.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 okay, so i went to a local dealer who suggested that the wires may have been crossed and that could be causing the problem. So i went to home depot and got new 16 guage wire, stripped and connected to make freakking sure that its right. Denon is screwed up anyway becuase regular banana plugs wont fit, its vertical instead of horizontal. anyway, i can post pics of how i had it setup if someone wants to see to see if i'm doing something wrong or what. anyway, same result, no bass... Then the dealer i bought from (online) suggested using the preamp section of the denon and the amplifer section of the onkyo to see if the problem remains, to rule out the preamp or amp section as the culprit. So i hooked up the CD player to the Denon, and the left/right preouts from the denon to the left/right amp in on the Onkyo. And the same thing, no bass. So that leads me to think the preamp section is messed up on the denon? anyway, my dealer was closing right now, so they said to call back on monday. They also said that he talked to denon and denon said all of their recievers dont sent frequencies below 80hz to any speakers besides subwoofers, regardless of the settings. Is this a bunch of BS or what? I told him that the Denon tech doesnt know what he's talking about, and my dealer more or less agreed. Now comes the part i dread, having a smooth exchange take place... thats all i want is for it to go smoothly... EDIT: Okay, so i tried the reverse now, with the Onkyo acting as the Preamp and the Denon acting as the amplifer. Success! the bass works! what does that mean... does that mean the preamp on the Denon is busted? so to recall, When the Denon acted as a preamp and amp, NO bass. when Denon was preamp and Onkyo was amp, there was NO bass. When Denon was Amp and Onkyo was preamp, there was bass. When Onkyo was Amp and Preamp, there was bass. whats the prognosis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ez8947 Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 I have contacted Denon again on this subject for a complete detailed summary of the crossover duties, as well as how to egage it and disengage it. I have contacted them before but their reply really didnt pertain to the question. I was very specific this time. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 15, 2004 Author Share Posted May 15, 2004 why are you emailing denon. are you suggesting that I should expect this performance from the preamp sections?? just fyi, we watched the matrix reloaded in dolby digital tonight and it sounded terrible with this amp. It auto detected the DD5.1, but even with the PB2+, it sounded boomy and awful. in the 3rd chapter when Neo takes off, the Klipsch and PB2+ paired with the Onkyo would shake everything, and it hits so low. But with the Denon, It again seemed to get cut off at 80hz, because there was no shaking, NOTHING! When Neo swings around a pole and kicks the agents in the chest with both feet, that produces a nice thump with the Onkyo, NOHTING with the Denon. When the Ship lands, there is a huge thump, as is when the guy with the big machine gun thing lands one of his guns on the groupd, the whole room shakes, but with the Denon I got nothing!!! what the hell is wrong with this damn reciever? pleaes dont tell me you all get this kind of response, I even did a reintiallize of the microprocessor. I set the sub to on, and at various crossover frequencies, I got nothing! I really hope that its just this unit thats defective... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauRus Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Ou6thisSN, I saw your post in AVS and replied there. I think you got a lemon. Also when I read that your dealer was claiming Denon does not pas frequences below 80Hz to the speakers, I instantly knew the dealer is a fraud. Send your stuff back to him. And get the real 3803, not the cheaper version (1083) - it might be built to lower standards and have not as good components as 3803. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 15, 2004 Author Share Posted May 15, 2004 he said Denon told him this, but nonetheless agreed on switching out the reciever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I had a 3802/03 both with my 7's,lots of bass and never a problem.You have a bad unit or need to read the manual thoroughly,reset and start over,good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jephdood Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 "Denon is screwed up anyway becuase regular banana plugs wont fit, its vertical instead of horizontal." --------- Umm.. I have a 3803 and I'm using 'nanas.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ez8947 Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Well this is Denon's half arsed reply: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, You have two choices for the front speakers. SMALL, which sends most of the low frequencies to the subwoofer and not the front speakers. LARGE, which sends most of the low frequencies to the front speakers and not the subwoofer. Whatever the crossover is set at that is what will be sent to either the front speakers or subwoofer depending what size you have them set at. Our higher end receivers will allow you to set the crossover below 80HZ. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- P.S. I am using bananas with my 3803 also. The outputs on this unit are exactly like all others I've used and seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 okay, thats crap, because if you turn on the subwoofer, it has an option of setting the xovers at 80, 60, 40, and like 100, or 120. Is he actually saying that no matter what size you set the speakers, anything under 80hz wont be sent to the large speakers? It seems that with my unit, regardless of whether a subwoofer is present or not, it refuses to send anything below 80hz to either the sub or the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 ok, when the reciever is in direct mode with the speakers set to large, there is no crossover or HPF (high pass filter) or any other form of EQ involved. speakers set to "large" recieve the full audio bandwidth (and play it back if they're capable) when you put the reciever into stereo mode, the tone controls get activated. the tone controls use an EQ that boosts all frequencies below a certain fixed frequency for the "low" and an EQ that boosts all frequencies above another fixed frequency for the "high." I believe this kind of EQ is called a "low/high shelf filter" but im not sure (now we're just talking symantecs). when a speaker is set to "small" it only recieves frequencies above the "crossover point" (technically, setting a speaker to small is placing a HPF inline with the audio stream, but it's often referred to as a crossover point assuming that it's being used in conjuction with a subwoofer...which has a low pass filter. here i go talking symantecs again). btw, what model denon do you have? i saw 1803 and 3803 mentioned and got confused. i have the 1803 and i can tell you that it has no problems putting out bass...in fact, i get a "flat" response down to 25Hz with my mains and so i don't even bother with a subwoofer (i've got a peak around 35Hz and a dip around 60Hz, but those are room issues). i mention this just to let you know that the model you purchased is probably not the culprit. the first thing i would recommend in troubleshooting would be to switch the + and - on just one speaker and turn off the subwoofer. set the mains to large and listen in direct mode. listen first with the polarity correct, and then note the difference when you switch it around (on one speaker only). crap, it's late and i gotta get up early so imma have to list the rest of me ideas later. if you're still having problems, it would be helpful if you'd list your signal path, starting at the wall outlets and ending at the speakers. i've found from experience that 90% of the problems tend to be something wrong with cables and adapters...either they've been plugged in wrong, they're going bad, or you're trying to use the wrong kind (for the record, im not talking about brands and this expensive thing versus another expensive thing). so don't forget to list that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou8thisSN Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 thanks for the explanation but i understand/know most of what you've talked about. I have a Denon 1083, which is the equivalent model to the 3803. I cant finda 3803 at either any local or online dealers, but I did find the 1083. So thats what I bought. I have tried new wires, I have tried reversing polarities. I have tried everything, but I am convinced that the preamp section is screwed up and here's why: when i set the speakers as large/no sub, I get no bass under what I can presume is 80hz. When I activate the speakers as large/small AND turn on the sub, I get no bass under 80hz from the sub, in all surround modes, including direct and pure direct. I have tried using a preamp section from my onkyo to power the denon's amplifiers, and when i do this, I do get the desired bass i want, which leads me to believe that there is something worng with the preamp section, not the amplifiers themselves. It seems as if the onscreen crossover functions and such have literally no effect on the outgoing signal. The tone controls do work but they just boost everything over 80hz, and doesnt help to extend the full range of the AVR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ez8947 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I have no choice but to assume your unit is in fact defective. This is not supposed to and does not happen with either of these Denon models under normal circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 well then, i'll just not post all my other crap I just felt bad seeing that you were having problems for so long so I figured I'd sit down and list all the trouble shooting tips I could think of. Oh well, if it's broken, it's broken I just think it's really wierd that bass frequencies just aren't there, like I don't see how something could break that would cause that result. That's not to say that it isn't broken, but rather that I find it rather interesting. I'd love to hear what a technician tells ya (if you go that route). Anyways, best of luck getting it fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.