Home theater to use with Klipschorns?

[DTLongo]

In light of replies to my earlier query on this topic I am looking at the Pioneer Elite series. Someone on the Two Channel forum also suggested Aragon (recently taken over by Klipsch).

From the Klipsch website I gather that Aragon makes two HT products, the Aragon Stage One preamp-processor-tuner and the Aragon 3005 five channel amp. Has any of you experienced these products and if so, what do you think? Also, approximately how much do they cost?

[MrMcGoo]

The main problem for Klipsch owners with a home theater receiver or pre/pro is that very high sensitivity speakers will exhibit any negative aspects of whatever is driving them. Inexpensive receivers tend to produce hiss and noise due to all of the digital processing that is required to reproduce a 5.1 movie.

I am using a Pioneer VSX-49TXi receiver as a processor. It is dead quiet, but lacks the high current capability to get the most out of the bass frequencies. RF-7s dip to 2.8 ohms impedance which is not easy to drive well.

I have added a Sunfire CG II with 225 watts x5. The Sunfire has a signal to noise ratio of >100 db. It added a slight hiss to the system, but it is not audible from the listening positions. The bass is now excellent.

Modern movies will have dynamic peaks that are 15 to 20 decibels above the average listening levels. The prescrition is for the quietest processor or receiver that you can find that has more connections than you think you will need. Add to that a high current amd that has no trouble driving low impedances. I rarely use the full 225 watts, but they are nice to have when needed for loud explosions whether in movies or music.

Pioneer's current Elite line fits the bill for a Klipsch owner. The Pioneers that support i.link are also a wonderful experience listening to DVD-As and SACDs.

Bill

[boomer9911]

Pioneer and Khorns....GAG...sorry, wrong pipe....I used Pioneer before, the TSX-9900S with my Khorns(93), found out seperates rule, very nice A\V Receiver mind you, a brute with power.

First, you want seperates or a killer A\V Receiver....trust me the McIntosh MHT200 is one sweet piece as an A\V Receiver. If you want seperates within a good price, the Anthem series, even Adcom has supposedly revamped themselves....your call...actually Bob Carver's is sweeettttt but a few donairs $$$$$

[D-MAN]

I had a Pioneer Elite cd player that didn't last a year. I presume that is an indication of the LACK of build quality and attention to detail that Pioneer embodies in all of their products.

Look elsewhere for better quality, IMO.

DM

[MrMcGoo]

In order to get a better processor than the Pioneer VSX-59TXi, you will have to go to the best Lexicon or Meridian processors. The entire industry is trying to catch up or pass the Pioneer Elites due to the market share that Pioneer has taken. Denon will bring out the 5805 at $6,000 MSRP and weigh 90 pounds to try to reclaim the lead in receivers.

Some folks do not like Pioneer, but others think that Pioneer Elite makes the best RPTVs, plasmas and receivers. They have the lead in high resoltion music with a new industry standard i.link for DVD-A and SACD.

Bill

[IndyKlipschFan]

I will throw in my 2 cents on the Aragon gear. One word.. Incredible.

I agree with K horns or really any upper mid level to high end speakers, if you have a lower mid level power/ AV source... Your probably gonna hate how it sounds.

I really like the Aragon combination. It is dead silent as far as hiss, and has incredible dynamics too. It is in the same ballpark of most upper end gear price wise, but far ahead of most in performance. One caveat I can say is you know Klipsch had to listen to this combo with the reference gear as well as the Heritage line to make sure it would please both people. IT DOES!!

Last, you get what you pay for in life. Once you hear this combination, it is hard to go back to just normal stereo or HT too.

[Vital]

How does Aragon stack up against B&K? I am really thinking about going with B&K when the money is right. The sound is awesome and the price is not out of reach.

[edwinr]

Khorn's and cheap solid state don't go. Separate processor and power amps definitely the way to go. All in one units (the cheap one's anyway) have too many sonic compromises, IMHO, to adequately drive a high quality speaker like the Klipschorn. You could do it for a while if money's an issue, but present the Khorn's with a good signal, and they'll jump out into the room like the speaker cabinets don't exist.

I haven't heard anything from the Aragon range. I'll be interested to hear some feedback. Must be good if Klipsch bought it.

[Q-Man]

Separates are the way to go, but you may need to work your way into them do to higher cost. You could start with a higher end Yamaha receiver, it will sound better then most other receivers with Klipschorns. Then use it as a processor someday when you can add power amps. Then move into a processor from there.

I've been reading alot about Anthem equipment and demoed some. Very nice for the price. AVM 30 AV/processor $3,000.00, that's down $400.00 from last years AVM 20. I think I'm going to get the AVM 30. Their multi channel amps sound nice, but I'm a McIntosh guy. You can also go with multi channel amps for now and upgrade to separate two channel amps later on. It's all a matter of how far you want to take your system.

Just don't go tubes, good SS with give you so much more in the bass end. That's why I like McIntosh SS, I think it has a tube like sound, but with more slam and control in the bass area.

[edwinr]

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On 8/15/2004 8:42:01 AM Q-Man wrote:

Just don't go tubes, good SS with give you so much more in the bass end. That's why I like McIntosh SS, I think it has a tube like sound, but with more slam and control in the bass area.

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Funny you say that about tubes, but in my room, double brick construction, I'm getting so much bass 'slam' I had to change my dvd/cd player from Toshiba to Pioneer universal player on an attempt to reduce it. This happened after I upgraded my tube amp. It seems to have worked but I'll suck and see.

[Strabo]

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On 8/15/2004 8:42:01 AM Q-Man wrote:

Just don't go tubes, good SS with give you so much more in the bass end. That's why I like McIntosh SS, I think it has a tube like sound, but with more slam and control in the bass area.

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I disagree. Having used the Anthem PVA-5 HT amp, a Lexicon (made by Bryston) NT512, and now tubes, I'll take the tubes any day. The bass goes just as deep with more presence. Maybe that's because it's a little more sloppy, but it's also considerably more musical.

IMO the only thing you will loose with tubes and bass is SPL but you can also find high powered tube amps (100+ watts) to compete with SS loudness wars if you wish.

[Q-Man]

I'll add a couple of more things that are now important to me.

While making changes over the last few years I found bass management to be a very important feature when using Klipschorns. I would say don't buy a receiver or processor unless it allows you options of at least 40,60,and 80Hz crossover points to the subwoofer. Some processors now even give you more options then that. Klipschorns will give you great output and sound from the basshorn to 40Hz, better then any subwoofer. You don't want a processor that only gives you the choice of large or small settings with a cut-off at 80Hz. With Klipschorns you want to cross them over to a subwoofer at about 40Hz. Those 80hz type processors are OK for direct radaiting speakers, because who cares if the sub or the speaker is producing the bass below 80Hz. The sound is coming from an inferior speaker, instead of a bass horn, in either case. For those of you with an outdated processor with poor bass management and Klipschorns buy yourself an Outlaw ICBM bass manager and put it between the AV/processor and the amps. It will give you crossover points at full range, 40, 60, 80, 100, and 120 for all your speakers. It also has a couple of cool features and controls for the subwoofer volume. Don't run your Klipschorns at full range either, a good sub is needed for those 16-40Hz movie sounds.

Also, don't cut yourself short with power. I recommend a min. of 200 watts per channel for Klipschorns. Those heavey bass scenes and some music need it.

I'm not going to get into a debate about tubes vs. solid state. My experience with tubes is too limited.

[Griffinator]

I've done tubes with HT in one installation. We gave him 35WPC monoblocks all the way around, and it wasn't quite enough to make it really go. We ended up dialing the sub crossover (pair of Pinnacle Baby Boomers, 600w apiece) up to around 100 hz to compensate for the amps straining to hit the bottom end hard in loud passages.

Do I recommend avoiding tubes? Hell no. The speakers we used with that system were a mere 96dB sensitive. KHorns with 70wpc monoblocks would be more than enough to feed the need for hard-hitting theater dynamics.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Q man.. Nice to see you back on here! I would love to see the finished pics of your set up if you have them. Let me know!

Roger

[Q-Man]

Roger,

Thanks.

I took my family on one of those summer vacations. Blew more then enought money to buy a new pair of Klipschorns, but it was pay back time. I rented a small house on Lake Gearge in NY to get out of this Florida heat for a while.

I got to meet my buddy John Warren, that was nice. He and his son drove up for a day & we took them out on the boat for the nickel tour of the area. I came back home and went back to work, and I'm almost caught up now. So I'm sticking my nose back into the Forum again.

I'm now shopping for that AV/Processor again. I have my mind,(what's left of it) about 95% made up for which one I want to try.

I saw some pictures of your basement. It looks like a place that I could have some fun in.

[sfogg]

"For those of you with an outdated processor with poor bass management and Klipschorns buy yourself an Outlaw ICBM bass manager and put it between the AV/processor and the amps."

This setup doesn't really work optimally though.

The pre-pro will change the timing (phase) between your main channels due to the time alignment feature. If you take bass information that is common to all channels but that has had its phase changed (due to the time alignment delay) and sum it for a single subwoofer you are going to causes peaks and dips in the response before the sub has even attempted to reproduce the signal.

If you try to have the processor fold all the bass into the L/Rs, then use the ICBM to cross the K'Horns off to a sub you either reduce the S/N ratio of the L/R channels by 10dB or you loose the LFE channels additional 10dB of headroom.

Shawn

[edwinr]

Excellent post Q-Man. You hit it right on the head re: bass management.

[Q-Man]

Shawn,

I can't technically defend the outlaw ICBM bass manager, because

I don't know how it accomplishes what it does. You may know more then I do about it.

I do know that the manual warns not to use any of the pre-pro's time delay features for the individual channels. That this will somehow degrade or interfere with the bass management. I would have to read the manual again to see if it says more or how it worded this.

You don't have the processor fold all the bass into the L/Rs, then to the ICBM, as you stated. In the processor you must have all speakers set to large and no time delay. Then you hook up your 5 or 6 channels to the ICBM and adjust the crossover frequency for each individual channel with the ICBM. Then pass this on to the power amps and sub. In my case all the speakers are crossed over at 40Hz. Then as you said, all the information below 40 Hz and the LFE channel are sent to the one or two subwoofers.

All I can say is that my Klipschorn system sounds better or more powerful with the ICBM then without it. The ICBM does have favorable reviews saying that it does indeed do what Outlaw claims it will.

On the other hand, I'm looking forward to having a processor with the ICBMs capabilites built into it. I think that I should hear a little improvement with the bass management in the processor. I'll now also be able to set the time delays for each channel to work with the different distances of the speakers.

I will also feel better being able to get rid of one of the links in the chain and about 8 cables.

Time will tell. I won't know untill I try, and those that know me know that I live to try different things.

[sfogg]

"I do know that the manual warns not to use any of the pre-pro's time delay features for the individual channels"

For the reason I said. It will screw up your bass response if you do that because you will be summing bass with different phase relationships.

"You don't have the processor fold all the bass into the L/Rs, then to the ICBM, as you stated. In the processor you must have all speakers set to large and no time delay."

The way I was saying was a method that could be used where you wouldn't have to give up time alignment.

"On the other hand, I'm looking forward to having a processor with the ICBMs capabilites built into it. "

What processors are you looking at?

Shawn

[DTLongo]

Somebody mentioned Marantz, so I got on their website and to my surprise, there is an authorized dealer just four miles or so from me. So I swung by there today. It's an obscure place by the Ocean City, MD commercial fishing harbor, adjunct to a marine electronics company. They don't advertise, and are soon to expand into a showroom on the major road here, but to hear them tell it, they are very busy as high-end custom home theater installers for upscale McMansions being built along the resort shore from here in Maryland up into Delaware. Which I can fully believe, seeing the astonishing development that is going on in these parts.

Anyway, the dealer rep pitched me on a Marantz SR8400 7.1 receiver, 110 wpc, that he would sell me for ca. $1300. The SR8400 appears from literature to be a mid-high end receiver with all the bells and whistles I would want including an elaborate learning remote. It does not have microphone-compensation a la some of the Pioneer Elites, but with a matching Klipschorn and Belle Klipsch front array, I don't think I would need that.

Do any of you have any opinion on this Marantz SR8400, or other Marantz HT products? How well would it drive Klipschorns in the bass in two-channel stereo mode? As you know from previous, my Onkyo receiver turned out to be very disappointing in that regard. (I am posting this also on the two-channel forum.)