RF-7 system vs THX Ultra II a listening evaluation

[htxpert]

(QUOTE)

The RF-7 would be better than the Ultra II system if one was to use all RF-7's-RF-7's front and back- a pair of RF-7's for the front and back center channels-this is a seamless as you can get with better dynamics to also

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Sorry

For movie soundtracks I have to disagree

The THX Ultra II monitors have different dispersion characteristics and in average home sized rooms this is a huge advantage I have had 5 RF-7's set up in my showroom and it sounded great But Foley effects and hard pans simply sound better on the Ultra II system

when set up properly Please keep in mind I am talking

movie sound tracks not music Funny you should mention

KI-362's I am currently installing a pair of 362's and

KPT-100's

[RFK]

I guess I listen to more music so I probably was judging the Ultra II against the sound I like for that. I'd be interested in finding out how the person you install the KI-362's likes them. I could not see how they could do anything but blow them away!

[tfish]

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On 9/3/2004 10:48:35 AM JewishAMerPrince wrote:

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On 9/2/2004 5:00:22 PM cjgeraci wrote:

]

I would have to respectfully disagree with Jerry on this one. Or you could go with a 1080 for your mains.

Based on my listening, the 1080 (or 1095) provides more than just extra headroom with respect to your mains.

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Carl

In Orange Peel's post that I responded to, he was looking towards a 5x200 amp. This to me means 1095 not 1080 which is 2 channel. It just so happens that YES the 1080 is an EXRAORDINARY amp and the 1075 is a great amp. However, unfortunatly the 1095 is not the same. It's sort of like the HULK, great brute force but not heavy on finesse. It is a bit muddier, has a higher hum level (really high on some) and lacks the "inner detail" of the 1080 (or 1075 for that matter) Some Rotel experts attribute that to crosstalk throught the grounding system that Rotel uses on the 1095.

JR

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Alot of good information here...thanks!

Wondering if you or anyone else could spare some more on this topic?

I am currently having a custom home built and have chosen to dedicate a family room off the kitchen as a tv / home theater / "critical" listening room. It will probably be an acoustical nightmare, but it is the best possible comprimise considering overall floorplan, aesthetics, budget, spouse, etc. The floorplan is very open (south florida style), and this particular "room" is 25'x17'(14'ceilings). Two adjoining walls are essentially 10' high walls of sliding glass that vanish into side walls creating an indoor/outdoor room. Half of the third side is wide open to the kitchen and remainder of the house with 70' of open view on a 45 degree angle all the way to the front entry of the house. The fourth side, 17' wide, is solid wall, which will be totally filled by a custom designed built-in entertainment center. I have always loved the crystal clear sound of Klipsch, so the entertainment center will be built around the new 70" Hitachi 70VX915 widescreen LCD projection TV, Klipsch RF7 / RC7, and hidden component racks on each end of the unit. The room will be pre-wired for 7.1 (actually 2 subs). Unfortunately, the surrounds/rear surrounds must be RCR-5 / RCW-5 in-ceiling and in-wall respectively due to aesthetics (AKA spouse) and not having one of the sidewalls going the full length of the room (no place to mount RS-7's). I haven't chosen subs yet but there is enough room for two front firing subs of almost any size. The room should look amazing, but with glass walls, tile floors, 14' recessed ceilings, less than optimal surround speakers, and front speakers that some would consider bright, I'm starting to worry that this setup will compound the brightness. I had planned on purchasing the Yamaha RX-Z9 to power this system, but have since heard that Yamaha can make RF7's sound even brighter. As acoustically challenging as my setup is, I still favor music listening performance over movie/home theater performance. I am therefore seeking advice on whether I should just abandon the receiver route and go for a preamp/processor such as the Rotel System mentioned in earlier posts. Although I am on a relatively tight budget (constant battle between kitchen/bath vs. home theater), I won't be able to tolerate a system that causes early listening fatigue. I have several questions regarding the Rotel system mentioned earlier. With hidden components, is there any great reason to choose the RSP-1098 over the RSP-1068? (I don't care about an LCD monitor on the front.) Also, I like the idea of the quieter (cleaner) RMB-1075 compared to the RMB-1095, but if I get the additional RB-1080 to power the RF7's, then the 5 channels of the RMB-1075 would distribute to (1)RC7, (2)RCR-5's and (2)RCW-5's. This is two different wattages to the various speakers (isn't that a big no-no?), and, to make things worse, my surrounds aren't even in the same speaker series (can't change that). Will this work? Any recommendations? Anyone?

Also, any thoughts on the new "digital drive" Velodyne subs? I'm looking for something more tight and punchy and less boomy.

[cjgeraci]

I have several thoughts.

First, on your rear surround array. I would not sweat the fact that they are different than your front three. After all, none of us live in a perfect world, and the secondary system in our family room lives with the WAF factor (though recently, the wife allowed a SVS cylinder to move in the family room from the basement - a major victory). As long as your front three are voice-matched, you should be fine.

On your choice of processors/amplification. I agree with the Yamaha analysis. Yes, I know some say that the highest end Yamahas are not quite as bright as their other models, but to me, it is just not worth the risk. I own a Yamaha 1300, 1 1/2 years old, and it is a nice receiver. But.....I would not let it near my Reference sevens for music - ouch!!! It does movie-duty with my Reference 35 system, and it is definitely too bright for my tastes - musically - with the titanium tweeters. I have heard of some Yamaha/Klipsch success, but the vast majority of those owners run other non-reference Klipsch (Synergy, Legend, Heritage). All of those lines run more forgiving tweeters/horns than the Reference line. Its part of why I like the Reference seven sound - extremely forward and detailed, but its also what makes them a challenge to get sounding "non-fatiguing." So, yes, I would not play around and just go separates - especially since you like music.

With respect to processors, I would go with the 1068 over the 1098. When listening to them, I could not hear much of a difference to justify the additional expense. I will let Jerry weigh in more on the 1068 since he has one. I liked the 1068/1075 combination, but I liked the Classe/Rotel combination even better. More detailed and broader soundstage. However, I got lucky enough to get a great deal on a Classe pre/pro right before the new model changes, and the new Classes are pretty expensive. The Rotel 1068 also makes a nice processor with other amps as well. Fish runs the 1068 with Parasound and really likes the combination. You might also want to consider Aragon separates. Klipsch recommends Aragon, and those who heard them at the Klipsch gathering came away impressed. I have never heard them personally, but they seem like another worthwhile option as well. The bottom line is to try and demo the individual pre/pros and amps with Reference sevens (even if it is your RC-7) to see what your ear likes.

As far as also running a 1080 for your RF-7s, you should not have a problem in doing so. That's what I do. 1080 plus 1075. When you are running 7.2, the 1080 amp and the 1075 are both controlled, volume-wise, by your pre/pro. That means that your 1080 just goes up in coordination with your 1075, and there is no difficulty.

The advantage is that I can just turn on my 1080 and run it for two-channel music without having to fire up the 1075. Plus, you get improved bass response at all volumes, and a slightly fuller sound for your RF-7s.

One last thing to consider. What is your source (CD, DVD players, SACD?) This also has an effect on the "fatigue" or ease factor. Items such as an outboard DAC can make CDs listenable - with respect to the high end - even with a cheap transport (i.e. DVD player). Additionally, there are tubed-CD players that simply put tubes in the output stage to further warm up the sound and take the edge off up high. Other regular CD and universal players are less edgey sounding than others so there are things to do in that category as well.

Finally, you can always have the crossovers in your front three modified. I had Dean do mine, and he does good work. I will spare you the details for now, but I encourage a search regarding the topic here and you will see what I am talking about.

So, there are number of things you can do to make sure you have no-fatigue listening. But, nice separates are a wonderful start.

Keep us posted.

Carl.

[tfish]

Thank you Carl.

Your comments are extremely helpful.

[cjgeraci]

You are more than welcome. Many in here have helped me on my journey. Lots of great, helpful, funny, and well, different, people in this forum. Been in many audio forums, but this one is still my favorite - regardless of the type of speakers that I own.

Good luck on your search and keep us posted.

Carl.

[TheEAR]

Interesting,for the price of a complete Klipsch THX system with two subs you get four RF7's,the RC7 and dual RSW15's,this time you clean house.

Dual RSW15's should best the dual THX subs with little trouble.If not take a SVS PB4-Plus/Crown K2 combo and lay waste to the THX combo.

[gravy]

Haven't posted here in awhile. Have been enjoying my system.

RF-7, RC-7, and RS-7 with Rotel 1098 pre and RMB-1095.

Just wanted to mention that I have very little system hiss or noise coming from my 1095. It does pack quite a punch. I am very pleased with this setup. To my ears the Rotel/Klipsch combo seems very neutral.

Question--Anyone running the RB-1090 amp with their RF-7s. I was thinking of adding two more RS7's to my system and purchasing the two channel amp for 2-channel listening.

[JewishAMerPrince]

On 9/6 Tfish wrote

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Alot of good information here...thanks!

Wondering if you or anyone else could spare some more on this topic?

I am currently having a custom home built and have chosen to dedicate a family room off the kitchen as a tv / home theater / "critical" listening room. It will probably be an acoustical nightmare, but it is the best possible comprimise considering overall floorplan, aesthetics, budget, spouse, etc. The floorplan is very open (south florida style),

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tfish

I too am here in South Florida, West Palm Beach area. This is my first day back online since Hurricane Frances blew us about and killed power, phones and internet connectivity. I hope you and your family faired well through the storm and you custom home does not get too delayed. I know my projects ( I am a custom high end home builder ) will suffer due to material avaiability.

I too have a large family room right off the kitchen, also with lots of glass that serves as my HT. Since you seem to be relatively close, perhaps you would like to come listen here to a Klipsch/Rotel setup in an equally acoustically nighmarish room. You can then hear for yourself first hand how some of the equipment you are contempating sounds in the real world. As a builder/engineer I have many thoughts on how to control the brightness in a room like you describe, far too many to post here. Some of those can be incorporated during construction at very minimal cost.

Looks like it's time to get ready for ANOTHER big blow...Ivan this time.

Jerry R

[tfish]

Hi Jerry,

My "South Florida Style" home is actually in Northwest Florida (Panhandle), so I won't be able to take you up on the offer. Thanks anyway. I'm starting to prepare for a near direct hit by Ivan. Hopefully I'll be back on the forum soon after the hurricane passes. Thanks for your advice.

[jgatty]

I hope you are not speaking of the 950/755 gear I just purchased? feel free to email.

[JeffDurbin]

This was a great thread but I noticed a year of downtime between posts. Would anyone like to offer comments on their experiences during the intervening 12 months? I am assuming there are quite a few additional Ultra II setups out there.

Here is my current 'fantasy':

Phase 1 - Buy three of the KL650s and two of the KS525s. Continue to use HK receiver and Cambridge Soundworks subwoofer (I can hear the snickers already). (within next 30 - 60 days)

Phase 2 - Buy the Stage One and 2007 and KA-1000 with a single KW120. Unload the HK and Cambridge Soundworks sub. (by the end of the year unless I decide to wait for new Aragon electronics in early '06.)

Phase 3 - Buy an additional KW120 and two additional KS525s. (whenever I can rationalize spending more money on the AV system.)

My room is about 15' deep with a bay window behind the seating area which adds a couple more feet with about 20' in width and standard 8' ceiling, so I suppose my cubic feet is about 2,500.

[TheSoundBroker]

We've actually had both set up for a long time.

Hold the phone on the music presentation on the Ultra 2's

however...they do seem to have quite a long break in time. After

running them in for about 100+ hours they do bloom and become a lot

fuller. Also, there is obviously a bass extention difference between

the Rf-7 and the KL-650 and it takes more adjustment of the subs and

main bass management to get the two seamless. This is made easier by

the fact that the Ultra 2 subs are cleaner and faster. If you have

KL-650's, do not cross them in at 80hz...put them lower into the 60 hz

range and if you have the capabilities of playing with crossover

slopes...steepen them up. This helps flesh out the bottom end dynamics

on the 650's quite a bit. Also, if you have a laser alignment

system...I can't stress enough how much difference it makes with the

Ultra 2's to have them all correctly aligned.

One killer arrangement we've done is to use RF-7's up front, an RC-7

center, KS-525 Ultra 2 surrounds, RB-75's if needed for 7.1 and KW-120

subs. This gets you the better matched dipoles, better subs and bigger

dynamics up front for music...sort of the best of both worlds setup.

[TheSoundBroker]

"Dual RSW15's should best the dual THX subs with little trouble.If not

take a SVS PB4-Plus/Crown K2 combo and lay waste to the THX combo."

Actually they don't...we tried it. RSW-15's go a bit louder in the

upper frequency ranges but do not get as deep nor are as clean. Last

space we did an Ultra 2 system in we got response down to 15hz at a

pretty decent level. We did a system right after that with RSW-15's and

got them to 20hz...which is still pretty darned low and very

respectable....but not as deep. The Ultra 2 subs don't look like much,

but trust me...they did some serious work on those puppies and it

shows. For serious horsepower and extension in a limited space...they

are pretty hard to beat.

If you are ultra serious about your low frequency...you can also have a

Danley PB-12 which will very easily outdo the SVS. Just make sure you

have some serious structural re-inforcement and some ceiling height

since it is 83" tall (18" on a side). This is a sub that is 95db

efficient...at 1 watt...at 20hz. It has 10db more output at 20hz than a

ContraBass and peaks out somewhere in the 125db range. That is some

serious, major, ungodly low frequency horsepower folks!